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  1. #71
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    OT but I've never seen an INTJ debate before and I allways wondered how a debate between severel INTJs would evolve - especially if they disagreed. It would make sense to me that if *you'r allways right*, debating with a person with the same starting point would become more about getting the final word than gaining more knowledge.

    *withdrawing to observe mode*
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  2. #72
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    As far as I'm concerned, I may not have gotten the final word about the pedophilia thing, but I sure as hell got the final word about what the entire topic was about when I concluded that "rationalism is irrational" after a heated debate.

    See my post, #69, and FMWarner's post above, #68. I feel that I've learned something new today.

    EDIT: The only thing about FM's post was he said that humans are proven to be social creatures. I don't WANT to be a social creature. Being social makes you weak and dependent, unable to think for yourself. How can you possibly be an individual by being social?

  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    OT but I've never seen an INTJ debate before and I allways wondered how a debate between severel INTJs would evolve - especially if they disagreed. It would make sense to me that if *you'r allways right*, debating with a person with the same starting point would become more about getting the final word than gaining more knowledge.

    *withdrawing to observe mode*
    I don't think this is unique to INTJs. After all, logic is logic. The differences in a debate usually stem from people starting with different sets of assumptions, not divergent logic. Uberfuhrer starts with the assumption that humans can/should be driven by solely intellectual motives, and I start with the asssumption that humans can/should be driven by a mix of intellectual and emotional motives. Within our own arguments, we both have an unassailable internal logic. This isn't because we're INTJs, it's because we're people that begin with different assumptions about how the world works.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Pleasure seeking is not rational. There is absolutely no intellectual merit in sex unless your purpose is to procreate. Isn't that what separates man from other animals? The ability to use intelligence to not indulge in such bestial acts?

    People who do not want children should not fuck in the first place. They should find pleasures elsewhere.

    So if pedophilia is wrong, sodomy should be wrong, because neither serves a purpose.

    As far as I'm concerned, I make perfect sense.
    This is a good demonstration of that which you've whinged about in other threads, i.e. the fact that people 'dont understand you'.

    Reheating your previous argument after it's been fundamentally disproved ('non-procreational sexual activity isn't an intellectual pursuit, therefore any such act is directly comparible with another' is the most fucking ridiculous argument I have ever heard), and then concluding with "I make perfect sense, so there" (effectively) is a very, very good example of why you don't make sense to a lot of people on here, and why people are becomming increasingly convinced that you're a troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer
    As far as I'm concerned, I may not have gotten the final word about the pedophilia thing, but I sure as hell got the final word about what the entire topic was about when I concluded that "rationalism is irrational" after a heated debate.
    Simply stating "rationalism is irrational" doesn't mean that you've proved anything, apart from your own inability to see your irrationality. This is a wonderful demonstration of your tendency to make 'profound', pseudo-intellectual conclusions with no evidence or reasoning.

    Let us not say that rationalism is irrational.

    Does that statement mean that I've won the debate? Of course not.
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    This is a good demonstration of that which you've whinged about in other threads, i.e. the fact that people 'dont understand you'.

    Reheating your previous argument after it's been fundamentally disproved ('non-procreational sexual activity isn't an intellectual pursuit, therefore any such act is directly comparible with another' is the most fucking ridiculous argument I have ever heard), and then concluding with "I make perfect sense, so there" (effectively) is a very, very good example of why you don't make sense to a lot of people on here, and why people are becomming increasingly convinced that you're a troll.
    As far as I'm concerned, nothing here has been fundamentally disproved to my satisfaction. Even science has become irrational.



    Simply stating "rationalism is irrational" doesn't mean that you've proved anything, apart from your own inability to see your irrationality. This is a wonderful demonstration of your tendency to make 'profound', pseudo-intellectual conclusions with no evidence or reasoning.

    Let us not say that rationalism is irrational.

    Does that statement mean that I've won the debate? Of course not.
    If you read the discussion, I ended up saying that our existence doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't -- you're born, you live, and you die. There's no comprehensible logic to it, it just is. Therefore it's not rational. So if it's not rational, then what's the point of rationalism? The fact that anyone believes in rationalism is irrational.

    Use your N to read between the lines, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just have the compulsion to understand things intellectually. If it's scientifically proven that humans are social creatures, then why are humans social creatures? If it's proven that children are not sexually developed at birth, then why? If people are attracted to children rather than other adults, then WHY? (And did I mention that if you're offended, then it's also irrational?)

    In the end we are all irrational and we all contradict ourselves. We have no reason to exist, we just are. I've never indulged in sexual or emotional pleasures. I don't make contact with other people unless I absolutely have to. Sure, I have those primitive human desires for such things as friends, intercourse, and whatnot, but I must repress them, because otherwise I fear that I will completely lose my imagination, my inquisitiveness, my intelligence, and my individuality.

  6. #76
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    OT but I've never seen an INTJ debate before and I allways wondered how a debate between severel INTJs would evolve - especially if they disagreed. It would make sense to me that if *you'r allways right*, debating with a person with the same starting point would become more about getting the final word than gaining more knowledge.

    *withdrawing to observe mode*
    It depends on if the goal is to win the argument or to discover the truth through debate. I much prefer the latter, but sometimes it isn't always the case. For instance, I was once in a debate at school and won by using an argument that I knew going in was clearly flawed. I also knew, however, that the other person didn't know it was flawed, so I just used it the whole time to win.

    And we always appear to be "always right" because we can subtley change our opinion to match whatever is right. We won't stick with an opinion if it is clearly wrong.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #77
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    And we always appear to be "always right" because we can subtley change our opinion to match whatever is right. We won't stick with an opinion if it is clearly wrong.
    Right. The concept of closed-minded certitude is foreign to the INTJ. Just ask the people who voted for options 7 and 8 in my poll.

  8. #78
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    And we always appear to be "always right" because we can subtley change our opinion to match whatever is right. We won't stick with an opinion if it is clearly wrong.
    That actually makes sense.

    Because the INTJ would never want it known that they were wrong. They seem happy being wrong until it is pointed out, at which point they change, and ignore how wrong they were before.

  9. #79
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That actually makes sense.

    Because the INTJ would never want it known that they were wrong. They seem happy being wrong until it is pointed out, at which point they change, and ignore how wrong they were before.
    I beg to differ. We don't necessarily change when it is pointed out that we are wrong...

    Christopher Hitchens ending a piece entitled So Mr. Hitchens, Weren't You Wrong About Iraq?:

    So, you seriously mean to say that we would not be living in a better or safer world if the coalition forces had turned around and sailed or flown home in the spring of 2003?

    That's exactly what I mean to say.
    Ayn Rand as described in a piece entitled The Benefits and Hazards of the Philosophy of Ayn Rand:

    It would have been wonderful, given how much many of us respected and admired Ayn Rand, if she had encouraged us to develop a more open-minded attitude and to be less attached to a model of reality that might be in need of revision. But that was not her way. Quite the contrary. Other people's model of reality might be in need of revision. Never hers. Not in any fundamental sense. Reason, she was convinced, had established that for all time. In encouraging among her followers the belief that she enjoyed a monopoly on reason and the rational, she created for herself a very special kind of power, the power to fling anyone who disagreed with her about anything into the abyss of "the irrational" -- and that was a place we were all naturally eager to avoid.
    This guy:

    Dear Prudence,

    I am a divorced woman in my 40s. I have been seeing a man in his early 50s, whom I love immensely. He is handsome, intelligent and most of the time he treats me like I am the love of his life. He gets me, he laughs at my jokes, and he listens. He is a wonderful lover - physically and emotionally. The problem? He is never, ever wrong. Whenever we fight, I am the one who has to get us past it with an apology. At first I would apologize with tears and remorse because he was so steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge my side. After two years, I realize that I can't possibly be to blame every time! Last night, after he accused me of behaving like a bitch, I offered an obligatory though lame, "I'm sorry." I didn't mean it. But it was either say those two words or start the fight over again. He doesn't realize this is chipping away at my regard for him. He has never had therapy (I've had tons) and he has never been broken up with. I think that has allowed him to legitimize his feelings and negate those of the other person, and that it has worked quite well for him. Is this hopeless? Do I get out now before I begin to hate him, or do I dare suggest that he examine how he behaves in relationships? My gut tells me he would rather let me go than admit his own flaws, and that makes me so sad.

    - Tired of Saying I'm Sorry
    ...Unless of course you define "pointed out" as "whatever it takes to make the INTJ finally get it".

    Edit: pt, has your P reverted to defending INTJ openmindedness now that I'm trashing it?

  10. #80
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Edit: pt, has your P reverted to defending INTJ openmindedness now that I'm trashing it?
    Rats, I've been caught.

    What I meant is that the only time you get to see the INTJ transformation is when they are caught in error. If you walk away and come back and talk about it again, they act like they always believed that. Not that they would say it, but just like "WTF is wrong with you, of course that's right... what's your point?".

    Being caught seems to emphasise the need to change, not that they would only change under those conditions (although sometimes I wonder if INTJs challenge themselves enough... )

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