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  1. #41
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I believe that pedophila is wrong because of my belief that it victimizes children who cannot understand the consequences of their actions, are easily coerced by such people, and a belief that it could jeopardize their futures by scarring their minds and hearts. This belief is not based on logic, it is based on empathy with their parents, and concern for the children.
    Actually, it is logical. Like I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    The difference between a child (object of pedophilia) and a consenting adult (object of homosexuality) is obvious.
    IMO, Uberfuhrer is not playing the Devil's Advocate, he's trolling. I refer the reader to the post I quote for my take on what to do about it.

  2. #42
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    The thing is...
    Just because an outrageous line of reasoning can be argued rationally doesn't mean that anybody wants to hear it. Maybe it's "unfair" or "illogical" that certain viewpoints are not welcome topics of discussion, but it is the truth. We are all presented with an option: go about like some self-styled Champion of Ration calling into question everyone's beliefs and bringing up topics that make people uncomfortable and be despised as a result, or keep some lines of reasoning to yourself and have friends. With hope, Uberfuhrer's experiences on this board will drive that point home.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #43
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    The thing is, even though I don't concur with Uberfuhrer's perspective, I can understand it. I don't think he was trying to say that he finds pedophilia morally acceptable. Everyone was just (understandably) shocked that he dared to show and defend a perspective that didn't accord with what normal people we consider sane accept. What he really did was show the weaknesses and fallacies that exist in the common logical arguments used to defend our moral positions.

    People who defend homosexuality often rationalize that it is acceptable because it is genetic. He was pointing out that the same argument could technically be used to defend pedophiles, and therefore we should question whether it is truly a valid justification. In other words, he stirred people up by forcing them to confront that it is emotion and not logic that moves them, although many of them try to make every belief they have sound logical. He was using that justification in an unorthodox way, forcing us to reexamine what it's full implications are, by showing us one of the possible interpretations we don't usually look at. He was assuming the role of this antagonist to conventional morality to show us that much of what we think we believe based on logic, is really based on perspectives that we hold in common with others.

    Thus, I believe the solution is to stop looking to logically justify all of our perspectives, and accept that some of them are based on the shared values and perspectives of typical humans. I believe that that is what this thread can teach us.

    Uberfuhrer's biggest problem is that he doesn't understand how to say things in such a way that he will be understood. He needs to work on his elocution, and realize that saying things in an understandable and less controversial way is important.

    Does that make sense?

    P.S.

    I believe that pedophila is wrong because of my belief that it victimizes children who cannot understand the consequences of their actions, are easily coerced by such people, and a belief that it could jeopardize their futures by scarring their minds and hearts. This belief is not based on logic, it is based on empathy with their parents, and concern for the children.
    Yes.

    It is we who have to come across.
    Not you.

  4. #44
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Uberfuhrer, sometimes I would swear you're attempting to systematically make every last person on this message board hate you.
    What a nasty thing to say.

    Apart from the first post I have not read the thread.

    Whatever the point is it does not count.
    You misinterpret it anyway.

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    So if it's genetic and the person can't help a preference toward people much, much younger than them, don't you think that it will eventually be more acceptable in society much like homosexuality is (more or less)?
    Pedophilia is about abuse of children.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Pedophilia is about abuse of children.
    Not exactly, the dictionary points out that it's merely the sexual desire for children, and no one can help their desires. It doesn't necessarily have to be forced intercourse. If that's the case, then that's called rape. That's a different story.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    The former. The difference between a child (object of pedophilia) and a consenting adult (object of homosexuality) is obvious.
    And there used to be a much larger difference between consenting adults of the same sex and consenting adults of the opposite sex. Consenting adults of the same sex is much more acceptable.

    I'm not trolling. I'm bring up a point and looking at it outside of social morals. Because after all, social morals change over time.

  8. #48
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    And there used to be a much larger difference between consenting adults of the same sex and consenting adults of the opposite sex. Consenting adults of the same sex is much more acceptable.

    I'm not trolling. I'm bring up a point and looking at it outside of social morals. Because after all, social morals change over time.
    I don't believe you.

    However, for the sake of proving my claim that I can discuss the topic rationally I'll spell out the obvious difference: Children are sexually immature. Their bodies are not yet equipped for reciprocally enjoying sex. That's not a social convention; that's biological fact.

    I'll grant you that some of the trauma that comes upon a child that has sex with an adult is rooted in the cultural illegitimacy of the activity (cf. the Greeks). I'll also grant you that children are not entirely asexual beings. But it doesn't follow that a child would ever of its own volition want to have sex with an adult purely for the sake of the experience.

    I don't know if the suggestion I'm about to make is controversial or not given the prevalence of religion on this board () but Uberfuhrer, if I were you I'd look for examples of consensual pedophilia occurring within the animal species that humans are related to in order to support the case that the taboo against pedophilia is nothing more than a social convention.

  9. #49
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    Just to be clear, the penis wasn't biologically designed to go in any other hole than the vagina, so why is deviance from that acceptable?

  10. #50
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Just to be clear, the penis wasn't biologically designed to go in any other hole than the vagina, so why is deviance from that acceptable?
    Strawman. Any form of consensual sex between sane adults is acceptable to me.

    Just to be clear, are you avoiding conceding my point?

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