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  1. #31
    Member Mercurial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    An INTP that's afraid of change.
    I've been through more change than you'll experience in three of your lifetimes, some of it instigated by people that see their own view of the world clearly, but not their own reflection in the mirror. I'm tired of change brought by selfish people only able to rationalize their actions externally who only operate on moral rules when they don't want the inconvenience of getting caught. So yes, I'm afraid of the change inglorious fuckups keep bringing into the world for their own ends.

    Rational and sane don't automatically belong in the same sentence, especially when it involves the welfare of children. Need examples? Start pulling court cases where the letter logic of the law put kids in situations where their guardians proceeded to destroy them.

    You can keep posting these theoreticals in the guise of neutral language, but your colors bleed through more every time.
    "One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor." - George Carlin

  2. #32
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Uberfuhrer, sometimes I would swear you're attempting to systematically make every last person on this message board hate you.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naem
    You can keep posting these theoreticals in the guise of neutral language, but your colors bleed through more every time.
    I knew Uberfuhrer was good at bring out the worst in people by saying things in just the wrong way, but it's clear he's brought you to using your inferior Fe. It's frightening how easily he did it, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Uberfuhrer, sometimes I would swear you're attempting to systematically make every last person on this message board hate you.
    Actually, he isn't. When people react too strongly to something he does, he apologizes. He probably just doesn't understand what kind of effect he's having on people with some of the things he posts. I mean, he has no Fe, and he's very isolated. I think we might have to cut him some slack. He probably has this weird desire to shock people for some reason. I've learned that you have to avoid taking what he says seriously. Think of him as being like Loki or something.

  4. #34
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I knew Uberfuhrer was good at bring out the worst in people by saying things in just the wrong way, but it's clear he's brought you to using your inferior Fe. It's frightening how easily he did it, too.



    Actually, he isn't. When people react too strongly to something he does, he apologizes. He probably just doesn't understand what kind of effect he's having on people with some of the things he posts. I mean, he has no Fe, and he's very isolated. I think we might have to cut him some slack. He probably has this weird desire to shock people for some reason. I've learned that you have to avoid taking what he says seriously. Think of him as being like Loki or something.
    The only way he's going to learn how to interface with other members of his species is, like every one else alive, through reward and punishment. When he says something that angers people, they will react accordingly. If he has half the brain he claims to have rattling around in his skull he'll realize he shouldn't repeat the statement and file it away in the "keep to myself" drawer.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #35
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naem View Post
    Are you asking this just to get attention or is this something you're really on the fence about?
    The former. The difference between a child (object of pedophilia) and a consenting adult (object of homosexuality) is obvious.

    Don't feed trolling, y'all. It's never productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Uberfuhrer, sometimes I would swear you're attempting to systematically make every last person on this message board hate you.
    He probably is. Psych 101: If he gives us a reason to hate him, at least he'll be prepared for it and know why. It's classic behavior for a person with low self-esteem.

    IMO, the only thing we can do to help Uberfuhrer is precisely to ignore him whenever he trolls so that we have no annoyance to carry over whenever he contributes. That way he might come to trust that not all people in the world will inevitably hate him and maybe then he'll be inclined to get some therapy.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I think we might have to cut him some slack. He probably has this weird desire to shock people for some reason. I've learned that you have to avoid taking what he says seriously. Think of him as being like Loki or something.
    I don't recommend this approach. We should ignore his trolling, but we should also take his contributions seriously. Such mature treatment would help him more than being granted outcast status.

    I'm not trying to get more points for F here I just find the Loki approach both impotent (he won't stop trolling that way) and patronizing (let's not decide on his behalf that he is a lost cause, let's give him a chance to prove that he's not).

  6. #36
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    He probably is. Psych 101: If he gives us a reason to hate him, at least he'll be prepared for it and know why. It's classic behavior for a person with low self-esteem.
    True.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    It is trivially true that every action ever taken by a human being is "genetic," in that it is dependent upon genetic precursors. (note: the relevent question is whether the organism is capable of adapting its behaviour in response to incentives, not whether it is "genetic" in the vague and biologically uninformed sense that term is usually applied).

    However, that highlights the inability of "geneticness" to act as a guide in making moral choices, since by categorising every choice whatever as morally acceptable, it does not aid us in making a choice between the alternatives at all. It is a negation of choice.

    In short, it does not follow from "action x is genetic" that "action x is acceptable." Further, any attempt to introduce the rule "all actions which are genetic are also acceptable," thus making the argument logically valid, is an ethical absurdity, basically reducing us to a situation where "anything goes" (since any action can be trivially reduced to genetics), an amoral stance.

    I think this whole argument is lost on me, because I believe that even if pedophilia is genetic in either of the two versions you describe, it is still a morally wrong choice. Even if nature tells you to do something, if you know that that action is abhorrent, that is your burden to bear. This is why I don't buy Uberfurher's argument that pedophilia will eventually become accepted due to "genetic" impulse. Homosexuality is a behavior engaged in by informed adults. Pedophilia is a behavior that exploits children who are not mentally mature enough to give consent. "I couldn't help myself" isn't likely to earn that person absolution any more than it absolves a father of three with lung cancer who continues to smoke.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I have noticed (obviously) that certain types are capable of debating sensitive subjects without going mental like I do.

    Things like peadophilia, slavery, rape, abortion, sexism, get me quite upset, and it does come across when I am debating.

    What topics upset you so much that your thinking becomes irrational?
    Let's come back around to the original post, shall we?

    For me the topic is religion. Specifically, two issues:

    1. The assertion that science and religion are naturally at odds and cannot coexist, which is patently absurd.

    2. The assertion that if religion is flawed and horrible acts are committed in the name of God, that God either must not exist or must be evil. Religion is a construct of man, and as such will err, sometimes horribly. Just because God is purported to be a divine being without flaw does not mean that the human institutions dedicated to him must be without flaw to maintain credibility. If a human institution without flaw is discovered, it would certainly be the first, and that does not mean that they're all malevolent.

  9. #39
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I have noticed (obviously) that certain types are capable of debating sensitive subjects without going mental like I do.

    Things like peadophilia, slavery, rape, abortion, sexism, get me quite upset, and it does come across when I am debating.

    What topics upset you so much that your thinking becomes irrational?
    I never become irrational.
    I become sometimes upset though.

    Rational people like me get upset by the power of (> by the decisions) made by the irrational people.

    Europe is different from the Levant (and the Middle East and Central Asia) by a degree.
    There is a chance a rational viewpoint wins in Europe.

    Hence there has been a little advancement. About the things you mention.

    Freedom of conditioning is the birth of a conflict.

    Hence you are at loggerheads with the culture of your origin.
    Good.

  10. #40
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    The thing is, even though I don't concur with Uberfuhrer's perspective, I can understand it. I don't think he was trying to say that he finds pedophilia morally acceptable. Everyone was just (understandably) shocked that he dared to show and defend a perspective that didn't accord with what normal people we consider sane accept. What he really did was show the weaknesses and fallacies that exist in the common logical arguments used to defend our moral positions.

    People who defend homosexuality often rationalize that it is acceptable because it is genetic. He was pointing out that the same argument could technically be used to defend pedophiles, and therefore we should question whether it is truly a valid justification. In other words, he stirred people up by forcing them to confront that it is emotion and not logic that moves them, although many of them try to make every belief they have sound logical. He was using that justification in an unorthodox way, forcing us to reexamine what it's full implications are, by showing us one of the possible interpretations we don't usually look at. He was assuming the role of this antagonist to conventional morality to show us that much of what we think we believe based on logic, is really based on perspectives that we hold in common with others.

    Thus, I believe the solution is to stop looking to logically justify all of our perspectives, and accept that some of them are based on the shared values and perspectives of typical humans. I believe that that is what this thread can teach us.

    Uberfuhrer's biggest problem is that he doesn't understand how to say things in such a way that he will be understood. He needs to work on his elocution, and realize that saying things in an understandable and less controversial way is important.

    Does that make sense?

    P.S.

    I believe that pedophila is wrong because of my belief that it victimizes children who cannot understand the consequences of their actions, are easily coerced by such people, and a belief that it could jeopardize their futures by scarring their minds and hearts. This belief is not based on logic, it is based on empathy with their parents, and concern for the children.

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