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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    There is a world of truth in that statement. I know that I can never have a true picture of how rational or irrational I am. My subjectivity is a limit that I have no way of knowing if I have ever overcome it or not, I suspect the moment I think I have is when it is most active upon me. I think we must always be striving for rationality and yet accepting that we'll never totally achieve it. jmo.
    That conclusion reflects a theory of rationality, which you feel is somehow at odds with your subjectivity (whatever that means exactly).

    My own theory of rationality has no such difficulty dealing with subjectivity, nor habits, values, morality, emotions or whatever. It is comprehensive.

    Unfortunately, you have not made your standards explicit, so it is difficult to understand how you came to your conclusion.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #92
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    How can any person ever be sure that their own subjectivity is not coloring how they interpret objective data? An important piece of data is the image we get of the rationality of our own behavior and thoughts or our impression of the rationality of those around us or the rationality of ideas.

    What we may come to think of as a definition of rational is always a product of our own internal processes and those processes are always being affected by our subjectivity. Since that would make it hard to get a clear, objective view of our own thought processes it seems that it follows that it would be hard to ever assume that we could be entirely certain that any of our thought processes are as uncontaminated by subjectivity as we think they are, including our own view of what it means to be rational. It is a goal that we can and I believe always should be striving for but we can never assume that have come to a firm and closed definition of that within ourselves.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    How can any person ever be sure that their own subjectivity is not coloring how they interpret objective data?
    What does "being sure" have to do with being rational?
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I would add skinheads and neo-nazis and others of that type into that and agree with it. There is no real difference, both groups trying to find something unique in a pre-packaged image. It is the same type of seeking non-conformity through mindlessly swallowing whole a pre-digested image and just regurgitating it back at people merely to get a rise out of them.




    I also find the people who turn being anti-social, pro-eugenic or racist into a fad too so 80's and been there, done that. Maybe they just need a new shtick.

    Then too, some people's shtick may be to lay irony on so thick a bulldozer could not remove it all. It is hard at times to tell. Either way, it just seems like a very sad and pathetic game to play.
    I responded to this post here to avoid anymore trolling incidents.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    What does "being sure" have to do with being rational?
    We can think we are being rational but never totally sure that we are being rational. Therefore how can be say with any firmness "I am being totally rational in my definition of what being rational means"?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    We can think we are being rational but never totally sure that we are being rational. Therefore how can be say with any firmness "I am being totally rational in my definition of what being rational means"?
    What does "saying with total firmness that we are being rational" have to do with being rational?
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    What does "saying with total firmness that we are being rational" have to do with being rational?
    In order to respond rationally, a person has to edit their irrationality out of their actions and responses to incoming data, but because our own subjective filters prevent us from seeing clearly when we are being subjective or objective then we can never be totally 100 percent sure we are actually filtering out the irrational parts of our organism when striving to be rational.

    The closest we can come to it is to say "I believe myself to be rational" or "I am trying to be as rational as I can be" but we can never say "I am rational" with any real sureness.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    In order to respond rationally, a person has to edit their irrationality out of their actions and responses to incoming data, but because our own subjective filters prevent us from seeing clearly when we are being subjective or objective then we can never be totally 100 percent sure we are actually filtering out the irrational parts of our organism when striving to be rational.

    The closest we can come to it is to say "I believe myself to be rational" or "I am trying to be as rational as I can be" but we can never say "I am rational" with any real sureness.
    What does being 100% sure that we are being rational have to do with being rational?

    To put it another way: what does being 100% sure that the sun will rise tomorrow have to do with whether the sun will rise tomorrow?

    Moreover, would you not agree that a rational person is one who is nondogmatic, open to criticism and new ideas? If so, then is not inconsistent to also demand a rational be 100% sure he or she is rational?

    The question "is heart rational?" and the question "can heart be 100% sure she is rational?" are not equivalent. It could be that the statement "heart can be 100% sure she is rational" is false, and the statement "heart is rational" be true. There is no contradiction there.

    It seems that you presuppose that rationality concerns how we justify, or make sure of what we know. It is therefore rational only to accept what we can be 100% sure of, and since we can never be 100% sure of our rationality, then we can never be rational.

    Furthermore, you seem to equate "being rational" with "being objective," which is why you conisder the inherent subjectivity of life a barrier to rationality. Unfortunately, these terms, "objectivity" and "subjectivity" are burdened by ambiguity, and the inconsistency of use from one person to the next.

    From my perspective, subjectivity is no barrier to rationality. I am intrigued to know where you believe the conflict exists.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Uberfuhrer's biggest problem is that he doesn't understand how to say things in such a way that he will be understood. He needs to work on his elocution, and realize that saying things in an understandable and less controversial way is important.
    .

    Im sure you're not exempt from the charge either..elocution is difficult for INJs..state your theme in one paragraph..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I have noticed (obviously) that certain types are capable of debating sensitive subjects without going mental like I do. Things like peadophilia, slavery, rape, abortion, sexism, get me quite upset, and it does come across when I am debating. What topics upset you so much that your thinking becomes irrational?
    F types seem overall to get more heated, depending on the topic [and it changes for everyone, depending on their personal values].

    I would not say that your thinking (or anyone's thinking) becomes irrational, that sounds too negative a term to me, and a little derogatory although I suppose if you define it stringently [irrational = values stance that starts with the individual holding the position, rather than a stance derived from some reasoning process] then it could be referred to as irrational.

    But I can sometimes see when someone's stance shifts away from exploring the arguments impersonally to suddenly just pushing hard for a particular outcome. The starting point is the passion, rather than some sort of "impersonal argument" that can be supported in a way that others can be convinced by.

    To answer the question, I am not sure if there are any taboo topics for me. Sometimes the discussion within a topic can hit me wrong (such as when I feel someone is not being open-minded, or is being unfair, or criticizing/slandering others out of malice/anger) and then suddenly I get find myself very angry and lashing out unexpectedly... but the topic itself is usually not what upsets me.

    (I can even make dark jokes about things many people seem put off by; I just don't usually voice them except around a few select individuals who know me well enough to know I am not being callous by my dry humor and it's just how I deal with things.)

    I do not want to claim special preference for INTPs, but INTx often seem to be able to "joke" about taboo material or discuss it from an impersonal perspective without getting heated about it. It doesn't mean that we do not feel badly about those things when they happen, but any conclusion we reach has to be reached through the same intellectual process we use for everything else. The emotions are on "another channel."

    For a topic like child abuse, for example, I can feel a great deal of hurt because I am a parent; but it's not part of my "decision-making" tree, it's just an emotional state I observe within myself as I go through the process of exploring the arguments.

    (Does this make any sense or am I just rambling now?)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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