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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Exactly. Cling to that idea, Sona, if you cling to anything here. There are many many people who would NOT laugh at you (especially the professionals, who are in their line of work because they WANT to help people with their problems)... and if they acted differently, it would not be a reflection on YOU, it would reflect badly on THEM.
    I suppose. Perhaps, I'm making excuses and I should just put my head down and and get it over and done with.

    I empathize with what you responded to me with, and I understand how convoluted and confusing the reasoning can get (I have written journal entries to myself that sound much like what you're saying, where you're angry about getting angry over being angry, etc...) That's the typical mark of the introverted intellectual (IxTx type), as far as I can tell.
    Thats good to know others sometimes also feel like that.

    Right now, you do have a lot of self-pride and can't bear the thought of potentially being laughed. Okay. That's where you are, then. Much of the laughter realistically is inside of you... unless you have spent a lot of time around people who WOULD laugh at you for admitting such things. (Is that what the male Muslim culture is like? Honestly? )
    Its not to do with Muslim male culture. I was at the mosque last night, the men actually cry at the mosque when the sermon is being delivered and I'm the only person who's not crying and I think maybe there is something wrong with me. Sometimes I get emotions when they are talking about the prophets etc. However, when they are talking about prophets living up to 900 years, and prophets doing celestial travailing on a buraq to me this all sounds like nonsense I mean travailing at the speed of light with no protection through space makes no sense to me. And that too on an animal its illogical. And I feel bad for questioning who gives me the authority to question this. Maybe I don't understand something. And I think if I be honest with myself most of my anger comes from here. Because I want to be told the truth.

    Anyway, other people are giving you more practical information, while mine is more general, so I will stop. I'm simply saying I feel bad that you have those sort of experiences, I am trying to "recalibrate" your thinking so you know that alternatives to your perceptions exist, and I want to encourage you to be brave and push ahead and embrace all of you... not just the logical parts.
    Theres always a fear there for me, which I can't get over. And the fears about going to hell, even though hell seems illogical to me. And furthermore I don't want to miss out on my 72 virgin brides in heaven.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    . And the fears about going to hell, even though hell seems illogical to me. And furthermore I don't want to miss out on my 72 virgin brides in heaven.

    I believe you when you say you are afraid of going to hell, but I think you keep throwing the 72 virgin brides in just for the hell of it, I don't actually think that means that much to you.

    If you find hell illogical, how do you not find the thought of transparent women, who's bones show through the skin they are so see through, 30 cubits tall as logical?
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    I believe you when you say you are afraid of going to hell, but I think you keep throwing the 72 virgin brides in just for the hell of it, I don't actually think that means that much to you.

    If you find hell illogical, how do you not find the thought of transparent women, who's bones show through the skin they are so see through, 30 cubits tall as logical?
    Well, who's to say haven and hell exist in our universe? Perhaps they exist in another universe were different laws apply. It's like the baby in the mothers womb if you could talk to it, and explain to it the world outside the womb it will not be able to comprehend it, until it actually experienced it and see it with its own eyes.

    [21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
    [21.104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.
    Eventually, all matter will be pulled back again to form perhaps another gigantic black hole. This view appears to be supported by the Quran.

    Scientific descriptions illustrating the making of a black hole, very closely resemble what the Quran describes in the above verse. As the center of the black hole is constantly revolving around itself, this sheet as it approaches will begin to be wrapped around it, before disappearing into the realm of the unknown at last.

    [51:47] And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it.
    Hardly something a man could have concocted while spending time in a cave 1400 years ago, without any instruments. This represents clear proof that the Qur'an was revealed by God. The findings of modern science are in complete agreement with what is related in the Qur'an, and these latest studies once again draw attention to that close compatibility.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Lol are you reinterpreting the Quran Sona style again?

    Don't forget, you are the one who says that when it says in the Quran you may Beat your wife, it actually means "Beat it" like in the modern "hey you buster, beat it would you"...ie move on lol lol

    You are funny when you are trying desperately to believe such illogicality.

    Anyway I am off to the park, enjoy the mental spin doctoring.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Lol are you reinterpreting the Quran Sona style again?

    Don't forget, you are the one who says that when it says in the Quran you may Beat your wife, it actually means "Beat it" like in the modern "hey you buster, beat it would you"...ie move on lol lol

    You are funny when you are trying desperately to believe such illogicality.

    Anyway I am off to the park, enjoy the mental spin doctoring.
    After referring to Arabic lexicon experts the word "darabah" has multiple meanings.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Part of probation. My probation officer she gave me it and told me to complete it by the end of the week. And she will look at this etc, because she is also a psychologist. Then she will pass it onto her other psychologist female friend. Sit around and talk about it.

    [...]

    So anyway I'm being really good with and trust her a little more, because she didn't have me sent down and let me have one final chance. So am doing this to impress her, and to keep my side of the promise./
    Sona,

    As some of the other message board members suggested, this is probably a simple anger management exercise. If your legal system works the same way as the U.S. legal system, then I assume your probation officer is some sort of pre-sentencing psychologist and wants to evaluate you and write up a report for the judge. That is, she is evaluating you to see if you honestly are willing to take responsibility for your actions and put in some effort to get a better handle on your temper and actions, or whether you're just going through the motions and don't plan to learn anything.

    IOW, she's giving you a choice: Do it the easy way, or do it the hard way. If you honestly try to learn the tools to get a better handle on your anger, then she'll probably write a favorable report and the judge will go easier on you with the sentence. (That's the easy way.) But if won't do the work to control your anger, then she'll take that as a sign that you aren't taking responsibility for what happened to you; she'll write up an unfavorable report, and the judge will come down on you hard.

    I would do it, If i knew I was the only person who would read it. I mean who's to know they could be laughing about me behind my back. Saying thats like maybe his angry because he has a small penis. I don't know. You know how its like. Its just strange that I don't know if they are egunily being nice with me or just trying to trick me.

    [...]

    Jesus, that would be so embarrassing. They would laugh their asses off after I leave. I never got to marry her, they probably use that and say I'm angry because of that. Which am not because, they will laugh and say oh look at that saddo he can't get over a girl.
    I knew a woman who was a pre-sentencing probation officer (she was also a psychologist). She evaluated criminals prior to sentencing and wrote up a report for the judge on whether or not the criminal was accepting responsibility for the crime and trying to learn some tools to change their behavior. Sometimes she worked with the criminals on anger management, sometimes on alcohol and drug abuse issues, etc.

    She took her job seriously and didn't laugh at the criminals. A lot of times she was really rooting for the criminals and trying to help them. If they would do the work with her and take responsibility, then she could write up a positive report and maybe help keep them out of jail. But a lot of them didn't want to do the work and just ended up getting stubborn and fighting with her over the assignments. It was a big disappointment to her when some intelligent young kid wouldn't work with her or take responsibility for his actions, and in the end she had to write up an unfavorable report, and sometimes the kid ended up getting sent to jail.

    But in any case, it's really all up to you. Don't worry about what the probation officer is going to think when she reads your work. Don't worry about what she is going to think of you. Instead, figure out which choice you yourself want to make: You can do it the easy way, or you can do it the hard way. You can work with the probation officer and learn the anger management tools that she's trying to teach you, or you can get stubborn and fight her on it and take the consequences.

    I'll write up a follow-up post on the subject of emotions shortly. I don't know if it will help you with the exercise, but at least it will give you some background info.

    FL

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    They've screwed me. Give me any assignment which doesn't involve emotions and I'll do it. Am competently lost here. Sahara help!
    Here are some good subjects for your exercise:

    Fear of acting wrong in public places:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Lol, yeah I go to the real extreme. I think everyones just looking at me. I hate public embarrassment. Even if its not even that bad. For example when I pay for something and I have to take money out of my wallet I beat myself up about that I tell myself off that I should have calculated it and had the right amount of money out before I got to the till.
    Fear of acting wrong in public places:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    In fact I went shopping with my sister the other day and she had taken her kids with her. And I was so bad with her kids, because they never sat still kept doing things touching things, and I'd keep saying to my sister control your kids. And she like they are only kids, and I'd say everyones looking at us. Tell them to stop it and just stand still.
    Pride at earning the respect of others:


    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Yeah I love formal uniforms. Sometimes, when my urges get the best of me, I wear a suit tie and glasses. The funny thing is I get lots of respect, when am shopping... If the manger is there he will come up to you and say "could I help you Sir" even women at the check out give you looks. I used to wear a suit and tie alot and I always used to carry my law book in my hand when I was doing my A Levels for law.
    Fear at the threat of physical attack, then relief when the attack is averted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    So I go to the other section and I feel someones gripping me from the back and tuning me around. Look back theres a massive white dude about 6 foot or something. I push his hand away. And his like what you say to my wife like acting all hard and shit. So am like fuck this man your wife came up to me and started giving me shit so I told her to piss off like, and my phone started ringing it was my mate I said to him come down morrions I got some "beef" with someone, when I hung up, he completely changed how he was talking to me, he started being safe and really cool to me. I was kind a relived too. I'm already on probation for fighting. But he would have really kicked my ass I wouldn't have run, but he would have beat the shit out of me.
    And so on. If you need fodder for your exercise, then just go through your old posts on this message board and pick out one of the incidents. I found a lot of good posts very quickly just in your last 50 or so posts. You posts are quite descriptive, and you usually described your emotions in each case, so the material is all right there.

    (I still intend to write up that follow-up post on emotions in general).

    FL

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Well, who's to say haven and hell exist in our universe? Perhaps they exist in another universe were different laws apply. It's like the baby in the mothers womb if you could talk to it, and explain to it the world outside the womb it will not be able to comprehend it, until it actually experienced it and see it with its own eyes.
    We don't know.

    But this is why agnostics and atheists have articulated this idea as the concept of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And it also mirrors Descartes' arguments about the "invisible demon."

    To put in more direct terms, all of these beliefs are fine and dandy -- but carry no logical weight whatsoever. We know in life that there is a principle/pattern where we are ignorant at various stages, then have our eyes opened later to truths we could not perceive before. But how can we define what these truths are, if we have no understanding of them? It makes as much logical sense to suppose that the 72 Virgins are waiting for you as it does to suppose that 72 Brutes with Bats wait for you on the other side, as it does to imagine 5000 pink elephants dancing through the clouds or that we will end up being slugs in the garden of the universe, inhabiting large cherry-striped apples. ANYTHING can be derived from this general logic.

    The only real constraint I can offer to our imagination is that often the truths that we are blind to earlier in life actually follow from what we already know. Patterns exists in the observable world, and the new truths we come aware of generally fall into these patterns. So it's probably most true (although not conclusively so, it's simply a "best guess") that anything in the afterlife -- if they are based on increasingly revealed knowledge -- will be based of these patterns if it will have any relationship to our lives and behaviors and attitudes now.

    And frankly I do not see a pattern in life where the common person is rewarded the sexual custody of 72 nubile souls. This is objectification at its worst -- as far as patterns go, it's treating one person as more important than another, and it's reducing many many other people to objects meant to pleasure one person, rather than resulting in fulfillment for everyone involved. As we age and develop mature relationships, people seem to become more and MORE equal (not less), and people become more detailed and fleshed out and human, not more like mere impersonal objects to be used.

    So if I had to project what sort of afterlife made more sense based on increasing knowledge gained during life, even if I had no proof of what might lie out there, the "72 virgin" scenario seems more like what a young child would guess -- egocentric, male centric, self-gratifying at the expense of others -- but not what an adult with more maturity would expect.


    Eventually, all matter will be pulled back again to form perhaps another gigantic black hole. This view appears to be supported by the Quran.

    Scientific descriptions illustrating the making of a black hole, very closely resemble what the Quran describes in the above verse. As the center of the black hole is constantly revolving around itself, this sheet as it approaches will begin to be wrapped around it, before disappearing into the realm of the unknown at last.

    Hardly something a man could have concocted while spending time in a cave 1400 years ago, without any instruments. This represents clear proof that the Qur'an was revealed by God. The findings of modern science are in complete agreement with what is related in the Qur'an, and these latest studies once again draw attention to that close compatibility.
    Having no knowledge of the Qur'an, I would simply have to ask whether secular scientists who examine the Qur'an say the same thing (Do they consider it to have an accurate depiction of what a black hole is? Do they believe the universe potentially spawned from a black hole? Is the description too vague or general to have so much read into it?)

    Based on the little information you have provided, well, I have seen Bible creation scholars use the same sort of generalized evidence to state why the Bible is emphatically God's word. (It's usually a case assembled from what vague truths can be derived from the text, while ignoring all the misses or vagueness or inconsistencies.)

    Quote Originally Posted by fineline
    (I still intend to write up that follow-up post on emotions in general).
    I look forward to seeing that. It's good to have you back for a bit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    So if I had to project what sort of afterlife made more sense based on increasing knowledge gained during life, even if I had no proof of what might lie out there, the "72 virgin" scenario seems more like what a young child would guess -- egocentric, male centric, self-gratifying at the expense of others -- but not what an adult with more maturity would expect.
    I agree with you, if I had to conjure up what I believed heaven to be like, it wouldn't be a physical gratification place at all.



    Having no knowledge of the Qur'an, I would simply have to ask whether secular scientists who examine the Qur'an say the same thing (Do they consider it to have an accurate depiction of what a black hole is? Do they believe the universe potentially spawned from a black hole? Is the description too vague or general to have so much read into it?)
    Many of the scientists who give support to the things he is speaking of, actually do not convert and usually get a nice hefty sum of saudi money to endorse it.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I look forward to seeing that. It's good to have you back for a bit.
    Thanks, Jennifer. I posted a message in the "Members missing and MIA" thread to cover my absence/occasional appearances.

    FL

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