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  1. #51
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    But quite true. The manipulator has a predictable cause, and motives that you can feed. The person who knows they have it over you, is normally the easiest to own.
    But, when you try and manipulate the manipulator, you become one yourself in the process, and thus, easier to manipulate.

  2. #52
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hey Evan, if you're talking about what you were accused of doing to Jack in the drunk thread, that doesn't count as manipulation whether it was true you did what they said you did.

    Yeah, that wasn't too clear but I think you get my gist.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  3. #53
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Hey Evan, if you're talking about what you were accused of doing to Jack in the drunk thread, that doesn't count as manipulation whether it was true you did what they said you did.

    Yeah, that wasn't too clear but I think you get my gist.
    No I don't think of that as manipulative (or, if I did, I would make the case that it was manipulation, but still not wrong). Thinking about the subtleties made me want to bring up manipulation as a concept.

  4. #54
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Interesting choice of pronoun change. Female issues much?
    Naturally I am using the female pronoun to refer to all of humanity - in other words I am using the female pronoun generically.

    And why not, the male pronoun has been used generically for thousands of years - it's about time we redressed the balance.

  5. #55
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    But, when you try and manipulate the manipulator, you become one yourself in the process, and thus, easier to manipulate.
    This is a very good example of the misuse of logic.

    And just as you can take a metaphor too far, you can take logic too far.

    You can of course use logic to disprove logic - but this is only smart and silly.

    It is a case of logic eating itself - and it is annoying - and it is meant to be annoying by a smart aleck.

  6. #56
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    But quite true. The manipulator has a predictable cause, and motives that you can feed. The person who knows they have it over you, is normally the easiest to own.
    Too true.

  7. #57
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've never seen convincing someone of an idea as being manipulative if you make a reasoned case. My understanding of manipulation is to get people to act without their entire consent. This is accomplished by withholding information, instilling fear or intimidation, undermining the person or their confidence, using exaggeration and flattery to distort their perceptions, or providing false information. If the person is in a position to give full consent to act in response to your desire in a positive way, then that is a different category from the manipulation I have described.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #58
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Fe users! I throw up my hands and shake my head.

    You're having moral qualms now about directly needing other people's feeling for your feeling?
    Who is that directed to and what do you mean?
    Everyone.

    And I mean Fe is directive, yeah?

    Especially in an FJ, but it is in TPs too (why do INTPs have such sharp, snotty, personal one-liners always ready, huh?)

    The creation of an environment that serves your needs. That's what Fe does. And it does it directly to other people.

    It can get to feeling like a negative thing, yeah? Like manipulation, maybe.


    Could this be an Fe shadow thing again? If there's an uncertainty about the authenticity of a particular Fe feeling, then there's going to be a worry about how it was created; and otherwise, no worry.

    I'm just guessing.

  9. #59
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    if by manipulate you mean "exerting shrewd or devious influence especially for one's own advantage;" then yes manipulation is wrong.

    if by manipulate you mean: "to cause change in"... to have some effect on something else, or whatever... then there is nothing wrong with it, we all do it in our daily interaction with people
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

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  10. #60
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    I for one detest head games. If you want someone to do/stop doing something then ask them. If they refuse and you have no direct authority over them deal with the situation as it calls for. One's efforts in trying to obtain a given outcome/action from another person all depends on the interaction between the two.

    I like to be direct and honest. The only way to deal with conflict is head on. Trying to manipulate someone is not dealing with conflict head on, IMHO. It is "talking through the daisies." Also, if I detect someone is trying to manipulate me I tell them to piss off and go about my business. I just don't have time or energy for such tomfoolery.

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