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  1. #21
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'm pretty sure most of these ideas would be complete whacko for the average European, from what I know.
    If you want to know I am rated as whacko in real life. Since plenty of this is not so usual in my part of Europe. But it looked to me that when I compare myself with US standard I have a conflct with their culture on suprisingly large amount of topics.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    "Diversity" is not unknown in Europe, it just depends where. I am pretty sure, for instance, that the inhabitants of Paris are far more diverse in origin than in Vancouver (I've been in Vancouver several times).
    Just look to the kind of Frenchmen you have here: one is in fact polish (Eck), the other is celto-dutch-italian-ashkenazic (myself)! But both are culturally French (maybe it's the ENTPness, who knows?).
    If I look at the family names of the neighbours that live in the same building as I, well, on the ground floor, you have a gay Arab couple. On 1st, you have me and a Malian family. On second, you have a Turkish family and a Lebanese one. On third, a French and a Italian one. On fourth, a Vietnamese and a Congolese. On fifth, a French and a Cantonese. On sixth, a Jewish and a Tamil. And we all live together rather peacefully.

    And I think my building is quite typical. Colorful, but typical.

    In France as well as in most continental European countries, the governments try to prevent any form of "clannishness" between communities. This explains why we have such a diverse neighbourhood, unlike what you may see in Anglo-Saxon countries where each ethnicity or culture tend to be separated from the other.

    Have you ever seen the documentary called "Amsterdam Global Village"?

    I consider my "country" to be Europe. Antisocial One is Croat. But when I check his list, I think we're pretty close, politically speaking.

    Thus I think that Europe is slowly becoming an united cultural entity (with the exception of England and Russia), even if it's quite difficult to understand for most US citizens.

    We surely have many thing in common but I think that there is probably some differences between us. Which will mosly be in P/J territory.

    I also think that people around the world don't quite understand what is going on this continent. Ptgatsby mentioned borders but but over large part of the continent borders no longer exist. With the tendency that they disappear on the remaining parts.



    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Huh? I just wasn't sure if I remembered correctly.



    So it's diverse even in diversity... Which is why I say generalizing isn't easy.



    I don't care to measure epeen diversity and I'm sure you can be proud of Paris diversity: the point was that the culture is not homogenous. If it isn't even inside a city, how can you generalize a large country with dozens of larger cities spread out over a massive area?
    Either you want to make a point or you have a wrong information about me.
    First there is always a average no matter how much diversity you have.
    Second everyone could answer by his/her local values


    As for democracy thing I don't have problems with ideas like freedom of speech and similar things. It is just that I think that I modern political campaigns are destroying the foundations of free and prosperous society.

  2. #22
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The irony of this is that the conversation with my Polish guy was the exactly the opposite of yours. He was complaining about intergration, and didn't understand how we could integrate so many cultures together...
    Well, I don't know where your Polish guy comes from? If he's from a rural, conservative and religious background, that would explain a lot.

    while you are telling me we don't integrate as much and have pseudo-segregation.
    No, you're not integrating much, and yes, there's is a REAL segregation. Again, I know Vancouver (I've even considered to live there, because of the quality of life), it's a classic example in sociology since you have such a large Cantonese community.

    *shrug* You can call Europe more homogeneous and call it more diversified. I don't see it, but then you don't see it here either. So, no, I don't get your point. You say you have diversity, and yet it is all much more similar that you can generalize all across Europe. That's not something I have heard from expats here. But then again, they consider France rather unique in Europe... from a labor point of view, especially. Heh, I'd consider the French side of my family very different than my Danish and Ukrainian side, as well.

    I don't see it, sorry.
    The easiest way to understand what I'm saying would be to carefully look at European members in Typology-c.
    You have a shining example how the mainland european culture is uniting, and it's right in front of your eyes.

    Look at FDG, at Antisocial, at me, at Entropie, at several others... Our countries are very different, unique in their own ways (France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Croatia, Portugal... etc...), yet our political and societal values tend to be more or less set in the same common ground.

    I think that even if we aren't the same, even if we wouldn't agree on everything, we could immediately recognize a fellow European: there's a feeling of immediate familiarity between each one of us.
    Could you explain me why?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Either you want to make a point or you have a wrong information about me.
    The point was the gap between your country's ability to be homogenous due to size and population. But I remembered your country wrong, I guess.

    First there is always a average no matter how much diversity you have.
    The average of all contrary viewpoints would emerge as neutral on any scale you use. Therefore, the answer to your question is "the people in the US would not see it as anything".

    Second everyone could answer by his/her local values
    Local? You mean personal. If you sat down with me at a table yesterday night, with my friends, we wouldn't agree on almost anything in particular. That's what I'm trying to get across - 'local' doesn't have much meaning.

    Maybe it would help to explain why this is difficult for me - take a look at the demographics for my city ( Demographics of Vancouver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). This is a small picture of this city... but you can take another major city like Toronto and get an entirely different attitude (they are more prone to Blackmail's segregation, for example). Or you can take a small town a few hours away, here in BC, where it is highly intolerant and racist.

  4. #24
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I as an average american must say, I havent read the thread !

    Now lets talk about what I get in return ! I think sports car !
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #25
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    We surely have many thing in common but I think that there is probably some differences between us. Which will mosly be in P/J territory.

    I also think that people around the world don't quite understand what is going on this continent. Ptgatsby mentioned borders but but over large part of the continent borders no longer exist. With the tendency that they disappear on the remaining parts.
    France seems to be a very ENTPish country, somehow. Sarcastic, bitter, intellectual, disgruntled and yet joyful in the same time. Maybe ENxP...

    You're correct about borders, of course. If this was my desire, I could decide to work in Germany or Belgium tomorrow, and almost no paperwork would be required. Economically, France, Germany and the Benelux are the same country. And there was a poll made in France, asking that if our country had to suddenly merge with one another, Germany would be (by far) our prefered choice, as this would create the less technical/political/economical/cultural issues (53%). The most despised choice among the list was... UK! (1.2%)

    Slowly, the countries are uniting. Slowly, the countries are trusting each other.

    ---

    At last, I should add that as an assistant professor, half of my students are Europeans from exchange programs. And the two-third of my former girlfriends were from different countries within the EC.

    That's why that for me, Europe is a daily reality.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, I don't know where your Polish guy comes from? If he's from a rural, conservative and religious background, that would explain a lot.
    He's international mostly. I think he grew up in Gdansk (he's a naval guy), but don't know where he and his family is now. A city, however, somewhere in the south.

    No, you're not integrating much, and yes, there's is a REAL segregation. Again, I know Vancouver (I've even considered to live there, because of the quality of life), it's a classic example in sociology since you have such a large Cantonese community.
    Cantonese, as a language to differentiate culture, is a good example of why I think perspective is needed. My 'cantonese' wife... her grandparents on one side is from hong kong and is partially indian, and are muslim. On the other side, they are 'mainland cantonese' who moved to hong kong. Her dad is generally a-religious now, but would of been more confucian than anything. Her mom's siblings have converted to christianity. My wife is atheist. Half the family married white guys, last generation and this one... which is a very common thing now. Nevermind the friend bit - segregated schools is a ridiculous concept here... I met nearly all my friends I have in highschool. It was like you described your apartment building... which would of described mine as well.

    I don't see how you can cut things the way you do, or how you are defining integration.

    Since this is getting a lot more involved - how do you deal with the stream of racism complaints in France? How about the recent riots? What kind of integration are you talking about, exactly? And this is just in one country. I can tell you that if I took all the europeans that I know, they wouldn't even start to agree on almost anything in the OP. I mean, you are taking, for instance, Poland - some 90% Roman Catholic - and grouping them with some of the most atheist nations on the planet (Scandinavia and select others)... and saying they agree on things like abortion? There's going to be more agreement here in Vancouver on this policy in Canada or the US than in Europe!

    Could you explain me why?
    Belief drives observation.

  7. #27
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The point was the gap between your country's ability to be homogenous due to size and population. But I remembered your country wrong, I guess.
    The average of all contrary viewpoints would emerge as neutral on any scale you use. Therefore, the answer to your question is "the people in the US would not see it as anything".
    Local? You mean personal. If you sat down with me at a table yesterday night, with my friends, we wouldn't agree on almost anything in particular. That's what I'm trying to get across - 'local' doesn't have much meaning.

    Maybe it would help to explain why this is difficult for me - take a look at the demographics for my city ( Demographics of Vancouver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). This is a small picture of this city... but you can take another major city like Toronto and get an entirely different attitude (they are more prone to Blackmail's segregation, for example). Or you can take a small town a few hours away, here in BC, where it is highly intolerant and racist.
    If you think that I am from Kosovo then you are wrong.
    Local values are too narrow term then. I meant more like regional values but the problem is that our societies are quite different.
    If you remember I am then one who created a thread about 100% white environment and we were talking about very similar things in that thread.



    France seems to be a very ENTPish country, somehow. Sarcastic, bitter, intellectual, disgruntled and yet joyful in the same time. Maybe ENxP...
    Croatia is then similar to France since it is ESTPish country.


    You're correct about borders, of course. If this was my desire, I could decide to work in Germany or Belgium tomorrow, and almost no paperwork would be required. Economically, France, Germany and the Benelux are the same country. And there was a poll made in France, asking that if our country had to suddenly merge with one another, Germany would be (by far) our prefered choice, as this would create the less issues.

    Slowly, the countries are uniting. Slowly, the countries are trusting each other.
    Since that there are things like common parliament, common currency, common laws it is impossible that it doesn't appears as same country in a way.


    Well, I should add that as an assistant professor, half of my students are Europeans from exchange programs. And the two-third of my former girlfriends were from different countries within the EC.

    That's why that for me, Europe is a daily reality.
    As far as I know i will have to spend at least one semester ouside my country.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    France seems to be a very ENTPish country, somehow. Sarcastic, bitter, intellectual, disgruntled and yet joyful in the same time. Maybe ENxP...
    ...Rude and nonchalant. Yup, typically ENTP.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    If you remember I am then one who created a thread about 100% white environment and we were talking about very similar things in that thread.
    Yup, that's exactly what I'm getting at! I don't think it holds as much meaning here, so the question is really tough to answer. Culture, ethnic, politics... it's hard to find general agreement on anything, even within the cultures... put them together and the lines are really blurry.

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