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  1. #21
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    I will respond to the rest of the posts, later on today maybe. Busy at the moment.

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Sona,
    If your going to leave behind all that you know then first question.

    You don't need to target a religious wife, just one who is ordered and reliable. That has nothing to do with religion. I've known people from religious background who were unreliable and unfaithful in direct contradiction to their religion.

    I think you'll be thinking about a "proper" religious woman but then you must admit that it is the woman who is being proper and she just supports the religion. Therefore go for the woman you want, don't tie yourself to a religion just cause your supposed to. It seems to me that it was the supposed toos which got you in this mess in the first place.

    Take your own course, make your own mistakes and try not to worry so much about falling down on your own. Sure it's nice to have people there to pick yourself up but can this not be measured against the pride of picking yourself up?

    I do not know you very well but I recognise signs. Get yourself friends who make you comfortable, not necessarily the ones you are given. Define yourself including and excluding as you see necessary. Then any feedback/ comeback/ repercussions are your own and not as the result of a group who have claimed you.

    You can be religious without the religion defining you. If you choose to be a Muslim or a Buddhist then that's entirely different to having it forced upon you by culture. Hence I suggest you reject those things which were prescribed to you (aside from medicine) and decide for yourself that which you accept and that which you reject.

    Even in terms of religion I have found that most cultures will not villify you if your a "good" person. Only those who let the religion define them will hold you to ancient texts and rituals. Those people you could quite possibly well do without.

    Good luck.
    (Oh and we can still do the flame thingy whenever your feeling more angsty )
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Every guy wants a wife who's like a slave, wife and mother. That doesn't mean that you don't love her or respect women. At the end of the day in my Punjabi culture, a woman is supposed to have sublime femininity, she has to play fun games with the husband. Only speak to him the most poetic and sweet words, feed him with her own hands now and dress him, put sirma in his eyes. Its part of the culture, and I want a wife like that.
    Sounds like a geisha almost, trained on how to serve men, and entertain them with over the top feminine wiles. Poor geisha, how must she feel.....

    I would totally disagree with your assertation that every man wants a wife like that, some men would find the very idea of having another human being bow down them to such an extent, with only poetic vapid simperings as stimulating conversation decidely abhorrant.

    I am the dreamer, it's my job to live in a fantasy land, yet here you are talking about a life from a page of the Arabian nights.


    Its not easy, when you don't believe in something from the heart but you do the pointless rituals. Once you have knowledge, you can't undo it and go back to ignorance. So, I can never tell my family or wife I don't believe in it really. She would leave me. Am not losing a wife like that who's going to treat me like a king over a religion. And not to mention, I want to have more then one wife simultaneously.
    You consistantly display your selfish and shallow tendencies, even when trying to make yourself sound deep. The only reason you want to remain within your religion, is so you can take advantage of those things that give you a female slave/wife, and more than one of them. Not because you get anything spiritual or meaningful from it.

    Is there nothing more to you?


    Time will tell. Am not leaving until I've experienced my culture and religion to the fullest.
    You mean until you have had the four simpering slave wifes, and basically had your fill of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    I want the best of both worlds. That's all it is, I want to go out to a club and get completely hammered get into a fight, have a curry and go to bed. You can't always be in your wifes lap 24/7. But then again I don't want my wife to interrogate if I don't turn up home for a few days. or if am working and seeing a mistress on the side. Its an option not that I would actually have a mistress, but I'd like the option to be open to me.
    Then why in the hell do you even need to remain a muslim for the four vapid simpering wives? if it's all about how much sex and drink you can have, being a non muslim will give you even more freedom to do so.

    You haven't once mentioned any true meaningful reason as to why you want to remain a muslim, it's all been shallow and "I want to be worshipped because I am insecure" desires so far.


    I want to experience things, I want to know how it feels like. But theres some things I don't want. Like having to pray 5 times a day growing a bread, not allowed to drink, not allowed to watch tv not allowed listen to music. I don't want my freedoms to be taken away. You know I don't want to be the guy who's at home with 7 odd kids, trying to have sex with the wife while shes trying to breast feed a kid at the same time. And I can just picture that, trying to get my penis into her ass while shes breast feeding the kid and intop of that shes on her period. ew!
    Sex sex sex sex, vanity, looks, sex, sex, sex........me me me me me me me


    I want to live like, the Islamic leaders who lived, like in the middle ages. Now those were traditions, like having a personal army having harems. Now its all just watered down.
    That is just stupid, i will say it harshly too, selfish and backwards, with aboslutely no true depth to any of your desires, I am glad I am not as empty as that.

    I am thankful as a woman and a thinking feeling being that the world has progressed beyond your sultanic fantasies, the amount of women and men that suffered because of that life are unimaginable, the amount of untold love stories and abuses, and deaths, and horrors of a world in which no one cared about human rights, and the right to make choices, a time when women were gifted to men to add to their harems, with no say in the matter, I feel awe that I stand here today in a world in which that isn't the case anymore.

    You are empty, a mere shell of what you could be, what all humans can be, try to look a little deeper, instead of lying to yourself.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Every guy wants a wife who's like a slave, wife and mother. That doesn't mean that you don't love her or respect women.


    How about wanting a wife who is a PERSON?

    Its not easy, when you don't believe in something from the heart but you do the pointless rituals. Once you have knowledge, you can't undo it and go back to ignorance. So, I can never tell my family or wife I don't believe in it really. She would leave me. Am not losing a wife like that who's going to treat me like a king over a religion. And not to mention, I want to have more then one wife simultaneously.
    I agree wholeheartedly with the first part: Once your eyes are open, you can never close them again.

    And then you turn around and try anyway ("I can never tell my wife or family I don't believe it in really.")

    And why? "She would leave me, and I am not losing a wife who would treat me like a king..."

    Even when I think through this as impersonally as I can, it seems clear that you have no integrity. You would rather live something you know to be a lie, because it gratifies your need for pleasure and demands nothing from you, rather than take responsibility for your decision and the truth you have found in life and strike out on your own, finding a life for yourself that you actually believe in. You are unwilling to pay the cost(s) that truth demands.

    That is sad... because you could be so much more, now that your eyes are open. If you persist on this road, you are destined to either become a shell of a man, insignificant and selfor probably yet another pointless suicide.

    I'm going to stop posting in this thread now, because I have a sneaking suspicion that you find all the attention (negative as it is) gratifying in some way... Eventually you will have to decide, though, whether you will continue to sell out or follow your newfound understanding. Often the knowledge we gain takes time to move from our heads to our hearts, so perhaps you are not yet at the place you need to embrace truth by how you live, but I hope that you reach that point someday.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    ...I have no interest in religion anymore...
    Sona, I'm glad to read that. Part of the reason I got along so poorly with you at first is because I thought you were this guy, or his twin brother:



    I do suggest to you that you don't ignore the religious aspect of your life, however. Explore faith and understand what you believe, even if it's agnosticism. That way you'll have it nailed down and won't be unduly subject to any random religious impulse that comes along.

    Why would I advise that? Because everyone has the impulse to worship, and everyone worships, even if they only worship themselves. Letting this aspect of your life just drift is ultimately dangerous.

  6. #26
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Every guy wants a wife who's like a slave, wife and mother.
    er...I would have to disagree.

    I don't intend this as an insult to you, but imho, anyone who wants their wife to be completely submissive to them is very weak willed and unable to see their partners strengths.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    How about wanting a wife who is a PERSON?
    That's a cultural assumption. American men wouldn't of sounded any different than him, though perhaps more polite, a hundred years ago... and europeans a couple hundred years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sona View Post
    Every guy wants a wife who's like a slave, wife and mother.
    Let's be clear on this so that you have no illusions left. That's the only way you will be able to move forward.

    You want a wife who's like a slave, wife and mother. I want a wife that has more drive than me, who offsets my own "P" traits and who I can support through life.

    You want it because those are your religious and cultural values. To have it, you will need to embrace the whole of your religion and cultural values. They operate together, obligation and respect, to form the dynamic. You won't be respected, and you won't have what you want, unless you do so.

    That doesn't mean that you don't love her or respect women. At the end of the day in my Punjabi culture, a woman is supposed to have sublime femininity, she has to play fun games with the husband. Only speak to him the most poetic and sweet words, feed him with her own hands now and dress him, put sirma in his eyes. Its part of the culture, and I want a wife like that.
    Have you ever considered your part in the marriage? I assume you are the eldest and are simply looking to drift into the role of head of the household and the respect it demands. Is that true?

    That's easy.

    Have you considered what it will entail? Your obligations? I know two groups of Punjabi's, so I'm familiar with what real family obligation means. You may want half of it, but you'll have to play your part.

    Its not easy, when you don't believe in something from the heart but you do the pointless rituals. Once you have knowledge, you can't undo it and go back to ignorance. So, I can never tell my family or wife I don't believe in it really. She would leave me. Am not losing a wife like that who's going to treat me like a king over a religion. And not to mention, I want to have more then one wife simultaneously.
    Religion, culture - whatever. They are only going to respect you, for your position, because of your position. The values will her to you... you will not be responsible for it anyway.

    You can't have it both ways. Either you take "what you want" and "pay the price" for it, or you redefine what you want and have the freedom of choice.

    Time will tell. Am not leaving until I've experienced my culture and religion to the fullest.
    Religion too? Do you not see a contradiction in what you just said?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    How about wanting a wife who is a PERSON?
    She is going to be a person

    I agree wholeheartedly with the first part: Once your eyes are open, you can never close them again.

    And then you turn around and try anyway ("I can never tell my wife or family I don't believe it in really.")

    And why? "She would leave me, and I am not losing a wife who would treat me like a king..."
    You don't understand things. Why make my own life hard. Doesn't make sense to me, its like say a rich man, just realizes the value of money and how it can get people out of poverty. Just because he understands that, you don't expect him to donate all his money to charity, and he himself live on the street. You are overly simplifying a complex issue. I didn't just wake up and morning and say "hay I want 4 wifes" I put some thought into this for years.

    Even when I think through this as impersonally as I can, it seems clear that you have no integrity. You would rather live something you know to be a lie, because it gratifies your need for pleasure and demands nothing from you, rather than take responsibility for your decision and the truth you have found in life and strike out on your own, finding a life for yourself that you actually believe in. You are unwilling to pay the cost(s) that truth demands.
    You see, I can accept it as part of my culture and identity. I understand the truth. If your friend was fat and you understand that, when she asks you how she looks you ain't going to turn around and say to her "Well I think you're fat and need to lose weight" you're going to think about her feelings. Does that mean you have no integrity? when you know full well 1.) you're going to hurt the other person with your words or 2.) you're going to put your life in danger for speaking the truth, then its perfectly logical not to speak the truth.

    That is sad... because you could be so much more, now that your eyes are open. If you persist on this road, you are destined to either become a shell of a man, insignificant and selfor probably yet another pointless suicide.
    Sometimes, its just easier to kill yourself. You get at a dead end in life.

    I'm going to stop posting in this thread now, because I have a sneaking suspicion that you find all the attention (negative as it is) gratifying in some way...
    I actually find it, interesting and It makes me feel better. It makes me look at my life and what options I have. I normally in any situation play the devils advocate.

    Eventually you will have to decide, though, whether you will continue to sell out or follow your newfound understanding. Often the knowledge we gain takes time to move from our heads to our hearts, so perhaps you are not yet at the place you need to embrace truth by how you live, but I hope that you reach that point someday.
    I might, at this moment in time I know a safe place and thats being a Muslim and doing whats expected of me as a Muslim. I know what to expect, it has order and rules. It has structure.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Sounds like a geisha almost, trained on how to serve men, and entertain them with over the top feminine wiles. Poor geisha, how must she feel.....
    I'll tell you, she would feel normal. If you haven't experience crack you can't have a perspective of it. When a baby is in a mothers womb, it doesn't know anything about the outside world. So it can't have a perspective of it - it feels content. Same thing with a woman who has never experienced "freedom" and what use is freedom to a woman is shes going to be all alone?

    I would totally disagree with your assertation that every man wants a wife like that, some men would find the very idea of having another human being bow down them to such an extent, with only poetic vapid simperings as stimulating conversation decidely abhorrant.
    I don't see it as negative. If a woman is content bowing to a man, there is no problem there.


    I am the dreamer, it's my job to live in a fantasy land, yet here you are talking about a life from a page of the Arabian nights.
    Yeah I did go over the top and embellished the truth a little.

    You consistantly display your selfish and shallow tendencies, even when trying to make yourself sound deep. The only reason you want to remain within your religion, is so you can take advantage of those things that give you a female slave/wife, and more than one of them. Not because you get anything spiritual or meaningful from it.
    I don't get anything spiritual from anything really. I go for things I can touch, eat, have sex with, spend, sell, buy, trade. Rest is just bullshit really.

    Is there nothing more to you?
    I eat, sleep and shit. Like everyone else. What more is there suppose to be - what do people expect me to do pull rabbits out of my ass or something?


    You mean until you have had the four simpering slave wifes, and basically had your fill of it?
    If I liked it, I'd stick to it. If I didn't I'd try to get myself out of it.
    Then why in the hell do you even need to remain a muslim for the four vapid simpering wives? if it's all about how much sex and drink you can have, being a non muslim will give you even more freedom to do so.
    Well I've decided to quit drink, and be more consistent with that my faith demands. I've also decided to stop fornication and not to look at a woman am not married to or is not related to me, a seccond time.

    You haven't once mentioned any true meaningful reason as to why you want to remain a muslim, it's all been shallow and "I want to be worshipped because I am insecure" desires so far.

    Sex sex sex sex, vanity, looks, sex, sex, sex........me me me me me me me
    It gives me an identity, order, structure and what to expect.

    That is just stupid, i will say it harshly too, selfish and backwards, with aboslutely no true depth to any of your desires, I am glad I am not as empty as that.
    OK.

    I am thankful as a woman and a thinking feeling being that the world has progressed beyond your sultanic fantasies, the amount of women and men that suffered because of that life are unimaginable, the amount of untold love stories and abuses, and deaths, and horrors of a world in which no one cared about human rights, and the right to make choices, a time when women were gifted to men to add to their harems, with no say in the matter, I feel awe that I stand here today in a world in which that isn't the case anymore.
    Fallacy of an Appeal to Consequences of a Belief.

    You are empty, a mere shell of what you could be, what all humans can be, try to look a little deeper, instead of lying to yourself.
    I don't know, you just say the most abstract things. I don't know what it is "what you could be" or looking "deeper" just give me something solid.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Sona, I sort of understand what you're talking about. It seems like you want order, structure, security, and happiness. I think everyone wants those things. I might even concede that everyone wishes they had slaves who would do everything for them. The problem is that women wouldn't make good slaves. I think what you really want is a robotic wife, that you can program. Everyone would, because it's so easy to have something you can order around without having to worry about it's feelings.

    What we were trying to say, however, is that women aren't like robots, and they have the same desires and wants that you do, whether they express them or not. Try to imagine yourself as the woman. Would you enjoy being treated the way you propose to treat the women you imagine?

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