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  1. #371
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So Jennifer, you are angry at me for saying stupid things and blaming it on you. Is that correct?
    I'm not sure.

    Because honestly the outcome of this conversation doesn't matter to me that much.

    Consider my comment more "intellectual" than emotional.

    (and no, I'm not crying.)



    As far as the larger comment went, if a man cries with me at the appropriate time (when I'm grieved), that's good. And if he can handle me being angry without trying to defuse, deflect, ignore, or placate me, that's also good.

    When I'm angry, I just want to be allowed to speak my mind. If you try to make me feel better before I know I've conveyed why I'm upset, that will just upset me more.

    So is that it means to be a man?
    (I feel like this thread is some other topic trapped in this topic's body.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #372
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Geez, Jennifer. You're gettin' it from all sides today.

    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #373
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    When I'm angry, I just want to be allowed to speak my mind. If you try to make me feel better before I know I've conveyed why I'm upset, that will just upset me more.
    That's how I feel too. That seems to be a bit of a T thing actually... I just need to say my piece and not be judged for it, to have it taken as intended. I can't stand it if the person starts to take it personally or tell me off for "losing my temper" or calm me down. It was a major bone of contention initially when my brother and I got reacquainted after years of estrangement, he had to learn that I can get annoyed and shout and rant but it's not AT HIM, and there's no need for him to feel upset or worried, and that trying to get me to sit down and talk calmly about it before I've been able to vent properly just gets me madder and madder.
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  4. #374
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    When I was a child, I looked so much like a girl that everyone automatically assumed that I was, and they continued to assume so until I explicitly told them otherwise. Then they would believe me, even if they were taken aback at first. Depending on what I did with my clothes and hair, I could pass for a boy.

    I think the ability to just change genders left and right, especially through childhood, gave me a valuable perspective. I did notice that people would treat me very differently depending on my supposed gender at any given moment. The way kids reacted to me differed, based also on their own gender of course. The adults treated me was different depending on my gender, though unlike the kids, the gender of the adults didn't make a big difference.

    I could go into a lot of detail about that, and I can draw some very complicated conclusions, but I'll stay simple. The genders are definitely treated very differently all around, in ways that really instilled my belief that gender-defined psychology is largely defined by society. And while the two experiences are different, neither one was really better than the other. Of course I'll never know how a woman feels when applying for a job, or committing to a relationship, but I know how it feels to be treated as both a girl and woman, on a default, social level. I'm sure having the experince lifelong would shape a person in ways that they might not have been without the experience (as does a male's experience, of course). Even with testosterone and estrogen being considered, I really think women have a lot of potential to be physical bullies, and men have a lot of potential to be emotional bullies. They simply aren't conditioned that way. So the consistency of any such statement will be really unstable, because it will change with the trends of society.

    *End objectiveless rambling*
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  5. #375
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Geez, Jennifer. You're gettin' it from all sides today.
    Oh, I'm just basking in all the attention.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #376
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    When I was a child, I looked so much like a girl that everyone automatically assumed that I was, and they continued to assume so until I explicitly told them otherwise. Then they would believe me, even if they were taken aback at first. Depending on what I did with my clothes and hair, I could pass for a boy.

    I think the ability to just change genders left and right, especially through childhood, gave me a valuable perspective. I did notice that people would treat me very differently depending on my supposed gender at any given moment. The way kids reacted to me differed, based also on their own gender of course. The adults treated me was different depending on my gender, though unlike the kids, the gender of the adults didn't make a big difference.
    So what did people seem to expect from you as a boy that they did not expect from you as a girl? If anything?

    In context of the OP, what does western culture think it means to be a guy? Or how were you treated differently as a guy?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #377
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what did people seem to expect from you as a boy that they did not expect from you as a girl? If anything?

    In context of the OP, what does western culture think it means to be a guy? Or how were you treated differently as a guy?
    Quite simply, they were less concerned with my being. I guess, to put that in terms of an expectation, they expected me to suck it up more. A good example (but not the only one) would be my orthodontist. He was an old guy, possibly more traditional because of that, and like most people, he at first assumed I was a girl. For a little while it carried on like that, and I don't precisely remember when it was made clear that I was male (though I did cut my hair short at some point in that period). Anyway, the difference was unignorable. As a girl, he's cautious, gentle, patient, asks me if everything is alright. As a boy, all of that is gone. You're expected to take it if you're ever going to be a real man. Haha.

    Most of the time, the expectations aren't stated, but they become apparent in the way you are treated. I am still very often mistaken for a woman, and an attractive one at that! (I was a cute girl, too). When I'm in woman mode, women are more polite, but when are irritated bastards that call out, and say stupid crap, or honk their horns. God, the driving ones are the worst. I have had a few guys slow down by the sidewalk for me...

    On the otherhand, in man mode, guys just go "hey", and move on, if they do anything at all. Women on the street are even more distant, perhaps even tense. They regard me like a badger. Of course, I know exactly why they do that!

    The point is, nobody is running up to be on the street and saying "you should be like this, woman!" But the general way people react is different, and if I had to experience only one mode all of my life, I'm sure it would have given me a different idea of what is safe and isn't safe, and what is rewarding behavior and what isn't rewarding behavior. For a lot of people, social reaction becomes reflection. They let it define who they are, and for those kinds of people, the impact of gender related treatment must be enormous.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 12-06-2008 at 06:24 PM.
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  8. #378
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...I think this might also be why female emotions just seem much more complex, why they seem to always be feeling more than one thing at a time - I think the expectations of what a woman is "alllowed" to feel are much narrower, so whenever she does feel something outside of those parameters then all the value judgements of female society come attached to it, causing her to judge herself and become thereby confused - you have anger, disappointment at yourself for being angry, sadness at the "loss" of your womanhood, your failure to live up to expectations of your social role, confusion at how this can be when you feel sure that you have been wronged and that anger is a natural response, worry about whether this means you will continue to be accepted as a woman... all these things mingle in all the time, whereas for a man, it seems more acceptable to simply feel what he feels and bulldoze the world on account of it.
    This idea is very interesting, but I doubt that women spend a lot of time worrying about what they're allowed to feel. I certainly don't... except for feelings that lead me to tears, and that's more of a mannish thing, so it doesn't count.

    When I want to cry (which is more often than men do... hello estrogen!), I get embarrassed, because crying is showing weakness, and simply an over-the-top way of whining and self-pitying (or, rather, that's how I feel about it when I do it, but not necessarily when others do). It's especially bizarre because no one ever told me that crying was weak - it wasn't embedded in me from a young age like it is for boys. It showed up as I got older and my type became more defined. Loads of sites talk about gender role conflict being prominent in ESTJ women, and I've never figured out how that could apply to me. Perhaps this is it?

    Also, I agree with all of Jennifer's other points (and her responses to Victor's points). Like you, I get angrier when people try to placate me... or interrupt me, especially. I suspect that when both of us rant at people, those people will hear a lot of "Stop! Just hear me out!"
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  9. #379
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    Just curious.
    Guys are boring.
    Stay away from them.

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