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  1. #51
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I don't want kids for all the selfish reasons. I don't want to raise them, feed them, take care of them, I don't want my time infringed upon with them, etc. etc. As recently as this week someone asked me how many kids I have instead of if I have any kids. Then she asked me how old I was and gave me a little look. Cripes, I'm still in my prime breeding zone! The expectation that you should have kids is annoying.

    I've seen some less than ideal parenting situations turn out OK. I know girls that I went to high school with get pregnant at 14, drop out of school, come back get their GED, go to college, get a job and are raising one or two kids by themselves. Of course the initial situation wasn't so smart, but they turn out to be good parents. Not that having children should be used as a maturity miracle grow, but having a kid probably was the best thing to happen to them. It literally slowed them down and made them grow up. There's no amount of planning you can do to prepare you for having a child. This should be obvious by the volume of parenting books out there. People don't need instructions on how to boil water.

    Deciding who should and shouldn't have kids is sliding into dangerous eugenics-like territory. If there were a set of parameters that people must fall within before having kids, most kids wouldn't get born. I don't even know if comes down to maturity level because people change a lot (usually for the better) after having children. Duh, hasn't anyone seen "Knocked Up"?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #52
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart
    You really don't know me and you don't know how I grew up or what goes on in my family or my in-law family, so I do not know how you can claim that I have no first hand experience with family dysfunction or denial mechanisms.
    First and foremost I want to clarify. This thread was split and the first-hand experience statement was more directed at those in here and IRL who say "when I have kids I am going to (insert comment)" and "I hate it when parents let their kids (insert rant)". I did not intend that to be about dysfunction/denial mechanisms. I am not claiming to know you and you are not claiming to know me-so no worries there.
    Surely, anyone with any perspective at all can see that adding a child to that situation, without some real alternative solutions to help them, just does not make good sense. I am trying very hard to see the offensive nature of that statement.
    I am not going to go through and quote everything that you said right now due to time limitations today. I will later however if you would like as I love a good discussion! However I will say this...here in the 21st century accidental pregnancies still happen on a daily basis. Families get started that way all the time. Would it be better if all pregnancies were planned better? Yes I think the chances things would fair better...there is no disagreement there except I do not consider that a guarantee. I do not think people who start families accidentally and make the best of it from there are bad parents by any means. I do not think they care for their children any less no matter the circumstances that brought them into this world. I know plenty of people who started life in less then ideal circumstances and are fine.
    Somehow I think people here are taking things differently than I am meaning them.
    I am not sure how others are taking the things you are saying. On the one hand most people are not disagreeing with you as most of the things you are saying are simple common sense-not taboo. I pay very close attention to wording and I am getting judgmental from your posts. I am saying this as my honest opinion and I could be alone in this. I am not wanting to start an argument or personal attacks. I am just letting you know what I have been getting.
    To me abuse still means what it always did, either physical or emotional cruelty towards a child. If you were abused, I am truly sorry to hear that and I am sorry my post brought up any bad feelings about that.
    You didn't bring up bad feelings for me.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  3. #53
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've seen some less than ideal parenting situations turn out OK. I know girls that I went to high school with get pregnant at 14, drop out of school, come back get their GED, go to college, get a job and are raising one or two kids by themselves.
    That's not exactly the situation I was focusing on. If the girls didn't have limitations from physical or mental illness that affected how able they were able to cope with daily life and they had a way of providing a roof over their heads while getting a GED then how do you figure that relates to the situations I was mentioning?

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Deciding who should and shouldn't have kids is sliding into dangerous eugenics-like territory. If there were a set of parameters that people must fall within before having kids, most kids wouldn't get born. I don't even know if comes down to maturity level because people change a lot (usually for the better) after having children. Duh, hasn't anyone seen "Knocked Up"?
    First off, I don't agree that if most people applied my "parameters" to their decision to have children, that most children would never be born. I disagree with the implication in that statement that "most people who have kids" fall within the standards I mentioned about being signifigantly limited in their ability to cope with the basics of daily life due to physical or mental illness and also I think most people who have kids are able to financially provide the basics of life to themselves with enough left over to provide for a child.

    I think most people who have kids are able to take care of the *basics* of their own lives before the kids come with energy to spare to deal with a child.

    To be clear, I am not talking about other people deciding for other people who should have kids and who should not. I am saying that individuals should be honest with themselves and evaluate their limitations before they decide to become parents. I also think that society should support such evaluation, not belittle those who make that decision as they currently mostly do.


    Then I was asked for clarification on what I personally thought the line should be drawn and I replied. I certainly am not saying my *opinion* of where the line should be drawn is something that should be applied accross the board as some sort of mandate. I admit that my own personal opinion is that it would be very nice for everyone if people who could not adequately look after their own lives did not add a child to their struggles, but I would never be for force in that situation or mandates.

    I think it has to be an individual choice, BUT I am disturbed at the people who can deny their own limitations when making their decision to be parents and I really don't understand them at all.

    BTW. I don't think Hollywood movies portray life in a realistic way, especially comedies. I think it is pretty scary if we are going to start drawing our wisdom in life from movies.
    Last edited by heart; 07-13-2007 at 05:53 PM.

  4. #54
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    However I will say this...here in the 21st century accidental pregnancies still happen on a daily basis.
    If a person engages in intercourse sex, they know that a child could very well result. I do not think there is much accidental about a pregnancy that results from not using birth control. I do agree that sometimes birth control fails, yet I cannot agree with the statement made by someone else here that kids just somehow "happen." Kids do not just happen. They result from the intentional actions of human beings.

    However, the topic here is not about accidental pregnancies. It about people who deny their own limitations to themselves and do not factor those limitations into their decision to have children.

    For a person who is making it in life and doing alright (here again I am talking about the basics of life) then having an "Who would have thought me having sex would lead to a baby?" event is not going to be the disaster it would be for someone who was not already doing ok in so far as the basics of life.

    Families get started that way all the time.
    I agree and most of them aren't affected by the situation I am mentioning either so I don't see the relevance to the subject in saying this.


    Would it be better if all pregnancies were planned better? Yes I think the chances things would fair better...there is no disagreement there except I do not consider that a guarantee. I do not think people who start families accidentally and make the best of it from there are bad parents by any means.
    Well, I don't know about putting a label of "bad parents" on the particular situations that I was mentioning. It is more complex than that. These are people who want to do what is best but are limited in that by things that are not totally under their direct control and yet they want to believe they are under their control.

    Again, you are bringing unplanned pregnancies into this discussion and I say that they only count in the discussion if we are talking about persons who had a physical or mental illness that was significant enough to limit their daily accomplishments of the basics of life.

    I guess I would prefer to use the term inadequate to bad, because bad has a certain connotation for some people of a moral judgement. These people have nothing wrong with their moral sense, they have a problem with being limited in doing what they need to do and a self delusion about the reality of those limitations.

    I do not think they care for their children any less no matter the circumstances that brought them into this world.
    It takes more than love to rear a child.

    I don't think I said anything about these people not loving their children. In fact I consider it not really a part of the discussion at all since the discussion was about fitness to be up to the physical and mental challenges of parenthood in so far as being active enough to watch over and take care of basic daily needs in a consistent and adequate manner. That has very little to do with the actual love a parent has for a child. (Off topic: Even some people who actually physically abuse their children do love them very much, but they are sick individuals who react to life stress in a negative manner.)

    To add the equation of feelings to this type of discussion just muddies the waters about the real facts and real consequences.

    I know plenty of people who started life in less then ideal circumstances and are fine.
    Again, you are taking what I said and adding your own interpretation of what I described. (We all do that on message boards from time to time) I get really irritated at having what I say distorted. I never described an "ideal" or "perfect" situation.

    I am not sure how others are taking the things you are saying. On the one hand most people are not disagreeing with you as most of the things you are saying are simple common sense-not taboo. I pay very close attention to wording and me am getting judgmental from your posts. I am saying this as my honest opinion and I could be alone in this. I am not wanting to start an argument or personal attacks. I am just letting you know what I have been getting.You didn't bring up bad feelings for me.
    I don't consider your expressing your own opinion that I have been judgmental as a "personal attack", I am a little more thick skinned than that. I admit that my own personal experiences with some situations that I have been witness to and some that I have been part of and the real pain and destruction those choices have caused have colored my views on this subject. I do not apologize for having these views. It is a message board and I am expressing an opinion.

    I don't know how many times I can say this: These my personal opinions. I am not out in the street campaigning for them to be mandated by law and in fact I think reproductive freedom is a fundamental freedom of human beings. It has to be an individual choice for each person.

    I merely said I thought that it would be very nice if people could be more honest about their own limitations before having children and if they really factored those limitations into their decision to have children. Then I was asked to clarify what I considered a limitation and I did my best to describe it. Then some people started trying to spin it into something more sweeping and extreme than what I said.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Ok Heart, I am going to make this simple for myself. I see a replay of what has already happened once in this thread w/gatsby after re-reading it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heart
    I merely said I thought that it would be very nice if people could be more honest about their own limitations before having children and if they really factored those limitations into their decision to have children.
    If this is all you are trying to say then we are in agreement.
    I do not apologize for having these views. It is a message board and I am expressing an opinion.
    No one is stopping you or even attempting to stop you from expressing your opinions. I do not agree with your opinions/views once you expound further and that's OK too. You are saying that several people are distorting your words and are interpreting things wrong etc. You have stated several times that what people are saying is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I am not so sure you are even seeking discussion? If you are wanting to just state opinions then I personally would like to know for future reference.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  6. #56
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That's not exactly the situation I was focusing on. If the girls didn't have limitations from physical or mental illness that affected how able they were able to cope with daily life and they had a way of providing a roof over their heads while getting a GED then how do you figure that relates to the situations I was mentioning?

    First off, I don't agree that if most people applied my "parameters" to their decision to have children, that most children would never be born. I disagree with the implication in that statement that "most people who have kids" fall within the standards I mentioned about being signifigantly limited in their ability to cope with the basics of daily life due to physical or mental illness and also I think most people who have kids are able to financially provide the basics of life to themselves with enough left over to provide for a child.

    I think most people who have kids are able to take care of the *basics* of their own lives before the kids come with energy to spare to deal with a child.

    To be clear, I am not talking about other people deciding for other people who should have kids and who should not. I am saying that individuals should be honest with themselves and evaluate their limitations before they decide to become parents. I also think that society should support such evaluation, not belittle those who make that decision as they currently mostly do.


    Then I was asked for clarification on what I personally thought the line should be drawn and I replied. I certainly am not saying my *opinion* of where the line should be drawn is something that should be applied accross the board as some sort of mandate. I admit that my own personal opinion is that it would be very nice for everyone if people who could not adequately look after their own lives did not add a child to their struggles, but I would never be for force in that situation or mandates.

    I think it has to be an individual choice, BUT I am disturbed at the people who can deny their own limitations when making their decision to be parents and I really don't understand them at all.
    I don't know how to respond to this post since my post wasn't referring to your posts at all. It was just general commentary to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    BTW. I don't think Hollywood movies portray life in a realistic way, especially comedies. I think it is pretty scary if we are going to start drawing our wisdom in life from movies.
    And that was called a joke. Funny haha...ha?

    Seriously heart, you seem a bit defensive.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #57
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    And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."

    And he said:

    Your children are not your children.

    They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

    They come through you but not from you,

    And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

    You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

    For they have their own thoughts.

    You may house their bodies but not their souls,

    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

    You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

    You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

    The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

    Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

    For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

    The Prophet, Kahlil Gibran

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