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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (And back to the rant - I don't want kids and don't think I'm really suitable for having kids. Or more correctly, I don't think my GF is suitable for having kids And yah, it still pisses me off when people apply pressure to having kids. You tell me I have kids, I'll tell you you shouldn't have, regardless of how well you are doing. Fair is fair!)
    Oh, shut your yappin' and go get BUUUUUU-SY! (Either that, or report for mandatory sterilization.)

    'nuff talk. You intellektuals don't do nuthin' but stand 'round 'n yap 'bout it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I'm hoping that, with four kids, I will get at least a couple of grandkids without feeling any need to apply pressure. I want to get to do the fun stuff without having to do much of the un-fun stuff. Don and I are determined to be good grandparents if/when the occasion arises.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #33
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, shut your yappin' and go get BUUUUUU-SY! (Either that, or report for mandatory sterilization.)

    'nuff talk. You intellektuals don't do nuthin' but stand 'round 'n yap 'bout it.
    Oh, no worries. Busy isn't a problem

    It's all fun and games until someone has a kid...? Yup. Lots of fun and games.

  4. #34
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I don't care who's eyes pop out, if the kid needs their backside tanned it's going to happen. If I told my kids I expect to be able to see them and they should see me I have no problems in a super market calling out their names loud enough to be sure they can here me. Don't like how I make sure my kids are safe and learn some discipline that's YOUR problem, not mine. Too many yuppies fucked up on the proper way to raise kids and I'm not about to let it mess with any kids I end up having.

  5. #35
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I guess I don't understand how it is possible to make a decision not knowing (or admitting - it ends up being the same) about a limitation, or believing the limitation won't be as much of an influence, and being judged for it.
    See, this is where we totally disagree. People who become adults are responsible for consequences that relate to when they lie to themselves about things they would rather were not true.

    To me, you are complaining about stupid people, not the willfully negligent.
    The people I am thinking of are not stupid in any way shape or form. They are dysfunctional and use denial mechanisms to deal with the negative aspects of their lives. One does not have to be stupid to deny truth.

    I can understand that... but I just don't see anyone as being fully cogniscient of who they are. You could say that I shouldn't have kids because I'm not physically strong, I suppose. I would reject that outright and have kids anyway, if I wanted.
    I would not see that as a problem, if the person had a way to get around their physical limitations that did not end up seriously shortchanging their children. Different people have different situations and resources.


    It's true, however... but is it true enough not to have kids?
    Depends on the person's individual situation and what their resources are. If it is someone who has a husband who won't pitch in around the home and they don't have family members who are able and eager to help out or they aren't welll off enough to hire someone to help, then if their limitations in energy may be a real problem.

    Only they can know for sure by looking around themselves and taking honest inventory about how able they are to look after their own life day to day. Like I said, if they have issues that prevent them from taking care of their daily stuff with some energy left over, then it seems prudent for them to question themselves about whether they are really up for parenting or not.


    I guess what I'm saying is that you are judging "me" based upon what ended up happening as if I should be fully aware of what would happen.
    I am not judging you. I do not know you.

    I don't believe it is that clear in advance.
    I am speaking from situations where I knew the person who had the children long term before the children came and I listened many times to their frustrations over how hard their lives were BEFORE they decided to have children. The thing is they always behave like the latest frustration or limitation is a temporary thing and unimportant in the grand scheme and yet they deal with the same issues on an going basis for years.

    I have had to help them at times to deal with serious fallout from them not being able to stand up to the pressures of their daily lives with their children. I have also countless times let them cry on my shoulder over their fears when child services has been called.

    I feel helpless watching things like this go down. I am limited in the amount of help I can personally give because of my own limitations. Any attempt to try and gently suggest that the problems may go deeper than just some temporary setbacks is always met with laughing denial and their belief that they will soon get their act together and yet the basic underying issues are not going away.

    When these same people considered having children, they glossed over their difficulties, dismissing them as "laziness" or temporary setbacks. I am close enough to them that when they were discussing things with me, mostly unrealistic gushing about all they were going to be doing with the child with an unrealistic picture of how energetic and active they were going to be doing it.

    Then reality came and they were not able to be energetic enough to do the basic items of daily chores on a daily basis or to be up and alert to watch over a toddler. To this day, they still will not admit how seriously their limitations affect them and the people around them, even when child services is in the picture and they have a "case worker." They bounce between crying over how out of control things are and they don't know why to having a false bravado about how their problems are just temporary and they will soon fix them.

    Sometimes it is - but most of the time it's not an easy call.
    um, I never said it was always an easy call. I am talking about some extreme situations that I have been a close witness to. I have not suggested that my comments should be taken as some sort of scientically based mandate to model society as a whole on... I am just saying that it would be nice if people worked harder to know themselves and to be completely truthful with themselves about their limitations before they had children.


    I was responding originally to someone's comment that it is okay for childfree people to not *want* children and I said it was not always a case of not wanting children, but sometimes (not all the time) it can be a case where a person decides that for the sakes of everyone involved, having a child is not a great idea. They might in their heart of hearts want a child but decide out of love for that potiental child and those around them not to start something that woud be a bad situiation. Life is not always ideal and sometimes a person has to accept this and make the best of it, in the best way for all involved.

    I do not think this is considered a valid enough thing in our culture and I think it should be and it also should be encouraged that people take a personal inventory of their suitabilty for being parents. At that point you began asking for clarificaiton on what I meant.

    Unfortunately, I see people standing on the outside throwing stones, justified on their own belief that they did the right thing by not having children.
    So you feel it is better in these cases to deny the truth to protect the feelings of parents no matter what effects of the actions of these parents on their children? Could you be so objective about the pain of children whom you felt affection for? Feelings of parents matter more than the needs of the child? I cannot agree with that.

    I am not saying to harass the parents who already have children, I am saying it would be a nice thing to try and encourage others who do not yet have children to take a brutally honest inventory of themselves.

    I see the personal pain that has resulted. I cannot be so objective about it all.

    None the less, I completely agree that people should be able to take care of themselves before having a child. To do otherwise is very foolish and rather unfair for the whole family.
    That's all I am saying here, yet I have been accused of throwing stones when I did.

    I am not talking about getting some parent to admit that they made a bad decision. I am talking about encoruaging future parents to be more careful to know themselves before taking the plunge.

    The only thing I am saying is that people need to be encouraged to be more honest with themselves about their limitations. I know people who deny that they are limited, even when a social worker is working with them to help them deal with those limitations. They have a thousand excuses for why things aren't working out at the *moment* and they don't stand back and look at the whole timeline and see that it is not just a momentary thing.

    (And back to the rant - I don't want kids and don't think I'm really suitable for having kids. Or more correctly, I don't think my GF is suitable for having kids And yah, it still pisses me off when people apply pressure to having kids. You tell me I have kids, I'll tell you you shouldn't have, regardless of how well you are doing. Fair is fair!)
    That underlined part is not what I am doing here. I would say if your child has not been judged to be in "danger" because of lack of supervision or bad housekeeping them you're doing well raising them and that is not what I was talking about. I am talking about when people are living so borderline their children are judged to be in danger by others, not just me.

    I am not talking so much about judging their actions are "good or bad" morally as saying hey, think before you (general you, not you personally) leap so you don't take on a situation that may be painful for everyone involved.

  6. #36
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Yeah, people don't think enough about whether they should be having kids or not. My childhood is probably a nice little example of that, only detail I want to bother with to explain is should the situation get out a few hundred government, counseling, and legal workers could end up canned.

  7. #37
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not talking so much about judging their actions are "good or bad" morally as saying hey, think before you (general you, not you personally) leap so you don't take on a situation that may be painful for everyone involved.
    Hmmm, I'm losing track of what our conflict is.

    How does this differ from my initial view that discussion and planning is a sign you are ready for a child? Someone who is out of touch with reality can think all they want and still make an objectively bad decision... Thinking, discussing and planning don't change that. Nothing changes someone who is out of touch with reality.

    The issue has nothing to do with thinking it out - that's what my stance was from the start - it has to do with people being unable to properly evaluate a situation. IMO, your personal situation has more to do with them being unable and therefore unsuitable for making a decision. Those kinds of people don't need to "think things through" - no matter how many times they do, they won't be able to evaluate their lives.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmmm, I'm losing track of what our conflict is.

    How does this differ from my initial view that discussion and planning is a sign you are ready for a child? Someone who is out of touch with reality can think all they want and still make an objectively bad decision... Thinking, discussing and planning don't change that. Nothing changes someone who is out of touch with reality.

    The issue has nothing to do with thinking it out - that's what my stance was from the start - it has to do with people being unable to properly evaluate a situation. IMO, your personal situation has more to do with them being unable and therefore unsuitable for making a decision. Those kinds of people don't need to "think things through" - no matter how many times they do, they won't be able to evaluate their lives.

    They will be able to evaulate their lives if they can begin to be honest with themselves. The human ego often seeks to hide our flaws from us. Part of becoming a true adult is to learn to get over this.

    It depends on why a person is out of touch with reality. If they have their perception affected by true psychosis then yes, they can't willingly change without medical help and even then maybe not.

    If they have an intentional defense mechanism set up to edit out certain apsects of life that they find unpleasant, then they can make a decision to work harder to stop doing that.

    When a person who is faced with a truth and they say "I don't want to believe that, so I won't think about it", usually followed by a nervous giggle (which is something I hear from them) then I think that shows the intention behind the denial.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    I just *LOVE* threads where people with zero first-hand experience are suddenly experts! My parents were very young and we grew up exceptionally poor in total filth. I won't go into stories on it except to say that by the "standards" given here I should not have been born. I was short-changed? I think not. I am alive, well-adjusted and fairly happy. I ate which is more then can be said for children in other countries. My goal is to do better then my parents. My parents told me their goal was the same. People make mistakes, poor decisions and except in worst-case scenarios kids end up being just fine. I myself was pretty close to a worst-case scenario and probably by todays standards 'abused'. I was young (19) and immature when I had my first child and we don't have 'money/energy to spare' certainly. My kids are happily loved and cared for and rarely need disciplined. I consider myself a great parent and hold no ill-will towards my own parents-thanks.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  10. #40
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    I just *LOVE* threads where people with zero first-hand experience are suddenly experts! My parents were very young and we grew up exceptionally poor in total filth. I won't go into stories on it except to say that by the "standards" given here I should not have been born. I was short-changed? I think not. I am alive, well-adjusted and fairly happy. I ate which is more then can be said for children in other countries. My goal is to do better then my parents. My parents told me their goal was the same. People make mistakes, poor decisions and except in worst-case scenarios kids end up being just fine. I myself was pretty close to a worst-case scenario and probably by todays standards 'abused'. I was young (19) and immature when I had my first child and we don't have 'money/energy to spare' certainly. My kids are happily loved and cared for and rarely need disciplined. I consider myself a great parent and hold no ill-will towards my own parents-thanks.
    Worried there won't be anyone around to take care of you in the old folks home? Pretty sure you shouldn't have to worry about that.

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