• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[MBTI General] SFs: What's the best way to persuade you?

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?

You can assume that I'm NT--your opposite--and that I've just been dropped on Earth. (Um, not too far from reality when you're regarding Rivercrow....:huh: )

:D
 

Economica

Dhampyr
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
2,054
MBTI Type
INTJ
Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?

If you're asking in order to improve your technique, you might find these links useful:

How to sell to Ts
How to sell to Fs
 

Shimpei

New member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
339
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Enneagram
9
I tend to be passive aggressive, and I would never buy what you try to sell me in case I'm not convinced that it would be good for me too. Approach me with something really promising. :)
Flatter me. Be kind and attentive.
I have no other idea.


What's wrong with sdalek again? ;)
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Thanks for replying, Shimpei!

What's wrong with sdalek again? ;)

Nothing's wrong with him. :) This is just a question about communications, nothing more. (Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke, you know.)

He'd be answering on behalf of SFs everywhere, but I have him locked in the basement studying for a major exam tomorrow.

Until then, I guess Shimpei is the Global Voice of SFness.

My perception of SFs is that I need to focus more on social niceties than with STs--and way more than with NTs. Also, I have to keep details and sequence in mind and build up to the big picture; for NFs, I have to present the global assist to world peace (tongue in cheek, you know) first, then go down to the details.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Damn fine question RC. Having tried in vain to persuade my ISFJ mother at several points the techniques evade me. What I did pick up is that my attempts to plant and idea as her own were met with suspicion (that could well have been my inexperience with such techniques however), the reasoning often failed also as there seemed to be suspicion that there was something missing or some reason (perhaps a social imperative) which wasn't being shown and would invalidate the idea. Although there is the reputation that SJs respond to authority figures, I couldn't necessarily see that either. Perhaps with the realisation that I was talking to an ISFJ/ ENTP I'd have gotten on better. Perhaps it's the blend that needs taking into account to gain access to both the conscious and subconscious minds. Not to manipulate but to properly address those shadows (sorry about the usage of that word, my vocabulary failed) which cause suspicion of problems. Like a check list there are certain issues that need to be addressed for each idea (preaching to the converted I know but I'm covering my ass here) a persons doubts and suspicions must be covered by the concept/ plan.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Hm. Let me try again.

SFs, you're great people. I love your diligence and attention to detail--and your concern for the impact of what you're doing amazes me.

I really need your help, though.

Sometimes I leap into conversations too soon and I get excited about vague, blue sky stuff. How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?

That way, we can connect better and help each other get what we each want.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
I've got my ESFJ mother round my little finger! It's easy-peasy:

- Speak calmly and nicely
- Don't swear or use too much slang, but don't use overly pompous academic language either.
- Be doing something for her while you're speaking, like making her a coffee or fixing her computer or something like that.
- Cite authorities for what you're saying. Often, saying it was someone else's idea and not your own can help. Like saying it came from a teacher or someone on TV she respects.
- Describe why you think it's a good idea using facts, and also illustrate how it'll make things nicer, happier, more convenient etc for other people, including her.
- If money's involved, show you've thought about the costs, and preferably have something printed, a breakdown of some kind of the costs, that you can leave with her.
- After explaining it, don't ask for an answer now. Say you'll leave it with her to give her a chance to think about it.
- Don't speak too enthusiastically, or excitedly, or she'll be suspicious and assume there's a lot in it for you, and therefore distrust your presentation. You gotta play it cool, like it's no skin off your nose whether she agrees or not, you just thought you'd tell her cos it "occurred to you" that it might be useful to her.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
OMG. No wonder I have troubles talking to SFs! :shock:
 

girlnamedbless

New member
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
186
MBTI Type
ESFJ
-What's the best way to persuade you?
Well, it depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you're asking me for your help with something, no doubt about it that I will try to help you in anyway that I can. I honestly wouldn't find a reason to say "no" unless I thought what you were doing was wrong, or I was honestly not able to help you at that time. There's usually no persuasion involved in these types of situations. However, if I see that you're trying to sell me something (like a car or a house), and I really, really don't want it- I will say no, and I'll mean it. Basically, I think that if I care about you and I consider us friends, I'll do anything I can to make you happy.

-How do you want me to approach you?
Smile... be kind. Show me that you're interested in what I'm saying. Give examples and be clear. Instead of being indirect, be direct. An example of this happened last night. I picked my iNtutive friend up to go out with a few other people, when her boyfriend called, and she asked him to hang out with us. He told her he didn't have a ride. So my friend looks at me and goes, "Ahhh my boyfriend doesn't have a ride." She was expecting me to offer and say, "I can get him, no problem." Which wasn't really a problem at all. However, I would have liked it more if she had said "Sarah, do you think you can pick my boyfriend up too, because he doesn't have a ride?" For me, it makes a difference in how someone asks me something. I am more pleased when someone asks up straight up for something.

-What annoys you?
The things that kind of annoys me sometimes with Ns is their vagueness... I need examples and lots of them. Tell me HOW something will better peoples' lives. If you need something, state it clearly... I can't stress that enough.

-If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?
Basically just make it clear so I can understand it. If you're giving me directions, tell me what color your house is. Ask me if I need clarification by saying simple things like, "So you got it?" or even "Are you good on that?" These little things can help a lot.

-How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?
During a conversation, you can do a lot of things to show me that you're actually enjoying and paying attention to details. For example, say things like "Yeah, I know what you mean!" because a lot of the times when I'm talking to Ns, they just don't respond to what I'm saying.. like they're in their own little world. A lot of the times I have to ask them if they heard what I was saying. Another thing you can do is ask questions. I personally like it when I say something and someone asks me questions about what I said, such as "Ah, what did you do after?" because it shows me that they are interested in what I am saying and care about the details. You can show you're concerned for the more personal side of decisions by, again, just asking questions, but more geared around feelings. Ask me how something makes me feel, if I need anything, etc.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Yeah, and if you can use your NP-ish scattiness to give over an impression of benevolent uselessness and dependence on her superior skills, sometimes that can be a way through - bringing out the 'mommy' in them. :D

But you have to be careful with this - if you do it wrong, it might actually just annoy her and she'll resent this idea she'll get that you just take her for granted and don't even try yourself.
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
-What's the best way to persuade you?
Well, it depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you're asking me for your help with something, no doubt about it that I will try to help you in anyway that I can. I honestly wouldn't find a reason to say "no" unless I thought what you were doing was wrong, or I was honestly not able to help you at that time. There's usually no persuasion involved in these types of situations. However, if I see that you're trying to sell me something (like a car or a house), and I really, really don't want it- I will say no, and I'll mean it. Basically, I think that if I care about you and I consider us friends, I'll do anything I can to make you happy.
The "asking for help" thing is something that really doesn't come naturally to me. It feels like an admission of weakness and (ooh, bad for NTs) hints of incompetence. (You watch--if you want to get an NT emotional, question competency.)

On the other hand, it is being factual. I wouldn't be asking for help if I didn't need help. Oh--and I'm admitting that I'm human. :rofl1: Check. :D
-How do you want me to approach you?
Smile... be kind. Show me that you're interested in what I'm saying. Give examples and be clear. Instead of being indirect, be direct. ... For me, it makes a difference in how someone asks me something. I am more pleased when someone asks up straight up for something.
:), :hi:, and :hug:. (Now I have a visual that'll stick.)
-What annoys you?
The things that kind of annoys me sometimes with Ns is their vagueness... I need examples and lots of them. Tell me HOW something will better peoples' lives. If you need something, state it clearly... I can't stress that enough.
:rofl1: Okay--I'm with you on the vagueness thingie. Sometimes other Ns' vagueness bugs me too--and other Ns will sometimes assume that all Ns' make the same intuitive leaps from the same data. But iNtuiting is a subjective process (so is Sensing, for that matter).
-If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?
Basically just make it clear so I can understand it. If you're giving me directions, tell me what color your house is. Ask me if I need clarification by saying simple things like, "So you got it?" or even "Are you good on that?" These little things can help a lot.
Information, details, and feedback. :doh:

How about this? Does it work to give you the details that I've got and ask if you need more?
-How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?
During a conversation, you can do a lot of things to show me that you're actually enjoying and paying attention to details. For example, say things like "Yeah, I know what you mean!" because a lot of the times when I'm talking to Ns, they just don't respond to what I'm saying.. like they're in their own little world. A lot of the times I have to ask them if they heard what I was saying. Another thing you can do is ask questions. I personally like it when I say something and someone asks me questions about what I said, such as "Ah, what did you do after?" because it shows me that they are interested in what I am saying and care about the details. You can show you're concerned for the more personal side of decisions by, again, just asking questions, but more geared around feelings. Ask me how something makes me feel, if I need anything, etc.
I can ask questions. :D

You know, all this reinforces to me why Active Listening is such a useful technique to learn. It forces me to be in the moment and it helps me maximize the information you're providing me, so I get to feed my thinking process.

Being aware of feelings is harder--I've spent three decades being barely aware of my own feelings! Basic etiquette lessons have helped me appear more in touch, tho--even if I don't have one clue why I'm saying these things, it makes you feel better and it makes it easier for us to communicate. Cool! That's a win:win! :nice:
Yeah, and if you can use your NP-ish scattiness to give over an impression of benevolent uselessness and dependence on her superior skills, sometimes that can be a way through - bringing out the 'mommy' in them. :D

But you have to be careful with this - if you do it wrong, it might actually just annoy her and she'll resent this idea she'll get that you just take her for granted and don't even try yourself.
Er...:huh:.... That explains something. A project manager I worked with was an ESFJ. I do my best problem-solving as an INTP, but I do my people/project management as an xNTJ (yeah, not a great improvement, and the more I extravert, the tireder I get). When I was on one of her projects as a subject matter expert, I INTPed all over--she was furious at me, because she wanted the extraverted thinker to drive the tech show while she kept people happy. (She was a lousy tech-PM, but good at managing most people [not INTPs, but, meh].)
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Wow.

I was part of an SF:NT discussion once like this in real life. 5 NTs and three SFs. This thread and the discussion revealed the same thing--the divides exist but are not insurmountable.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
- If money's involved, show you've thought about the costs, and preferably have something printed, a breakdown of some kind of the costs, that you can leave with her.
- After explaining it, don't ask for an answer now. Say you'll leave it with her to give her a chance to think about it.
- Don't speak too enthusiastically, or excitedly, or she'll be suspicious and assume there's a lot in it for you, and therefore distrust your presentation. You gotta play it cool, like it's no skin off your nose whether she agrees or not, you just thought you'd tell her cos it "occurred to you" that it might be useful to her.
I do all three of these things when presenting requests to my INTP and it's pretty effective. Sometimes he will go along just so he doesn't have to actually read the printed up breakdown of expenses. :D
 

rivercrow

shoshaku jushaku
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
1,555
MBTI Type
type
Yeah--some of those seem like good practices for dealing with any IxTxs, too.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
ESFP:

- Be goodlooking and have a nice ass
- Speak eloquently
- Be reasonable and logical in your conclusions
- Weak nice clothes

ISFJ.

- Be blunt and straightforward in your dealings
- Laugh a lot and make jokes, even if they're bad it doesn't really matter
- Don't dress too well
- Having a nice ass can help, even if most ISFJs will deny it

Generally SFs quickly catch any attempt at emotional manipulation, and/or react with hostility to pushiness.
 

Spartan

New member
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
24
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?

You can assume that I'm NT--your opposite--and that I've just been dropped on Earth. (Um, not too far from reality when you're regarding Rivercrow....:huh: )

:D


send me a letter about the benefits of what you are selling and why I should buy it. If I am interesting I will call you and make contact with you.

I don't particularly like when salesman approach me face to face with offers.

I need to make a thoughtout decision and have a good reason before I buy something.
 

lookoutbelow84093

New member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
70
MBTI Type
INFP
Wow great thread. Im an INFP who recently had a 2 month relationship with an ISFP and communication was always the biggest problem. Wish I would have known this 2 weeks ago. Any advice on talking to an ISFP who thinks you overanalyze everything (true N in action) and doesnt hear what she says?
 

sriv

New member
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
418
MBTI Type
JIxT
This all seems very manipulative and tricky. Are you asking what disguise to wear to easiest scam an SJ? It does not sound moral since you are not being yourself when you do it. I love it. Continue.
 
Top