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  1. #1
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Default How do benefit relations benefit off each other?

    Benefit relations are relations are types which one benefits from the relation. I am curious how exactly do the types benefit off each other? For instance, if ENFJ and ESFP were in a relationship, ENFJ would request ESFP's Fi. If ESTJ were in a relationship with ENTP, ESTJ would request ENTP's Ti. I'm confused with what this means? What does it mean when ENFJ and ESTJ would benefit off ENFJ and ESTJ leading functions? Can anyone elaborate onto the point?

    In the relations, supposedly, ENFJ will instruct ESFP to use their Ni better. ESTJ will instruct ENTP to use their Si better. Can anyone elaborate what this means?

    Socionics - the16types.info - Benefit relations
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  2. #2
    surgical penis klinik Typh0n's Avatar
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    I've seen this discussed on forums so many times and noone can really give a coherent explanation. Its better left said that these relations are supposed to be "asymmetrical", that is, one person seems to be advantaged over the other, like in supervision relations, but how this works in detail noone really knows, nor have I gained any insight about how this could work in my own relations.

    I just know that I do admire IEEs for being able to manipulate people where I can't, how do SLEs see me though I do not know. I also get frustrated at IEE's lack of logic, knowledge, and rationality, when they open to me about what they know it seems they do not have any competence or knowledge about anything. IEE's ability to get what they want comes from doing stuff for people, manipulating emotions, etc. So IEEs probably see me as inferior for not being as into people as they are, but I find them a little frustrating because they act like they have nothing to learn from me, when in fact they do, they just don't realize it (or aeren't interested). I feel like SLEs have a similar frustration when they try to get me to take questions of initiative in work, life love, etc, and I argue that its not wise to jump-head first into situations. I do not see SLEs as inferior by the way, so I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

    So there you have it, thats my experience but it says nothing about how the benefactor is in a favorable position with respect to beneficiary.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I've seen this discussed on forums so many times and noone can really give a coherent explanation. Its better left said that these relations are supposed to be "asymmetrical", that is, one person seems to be advantaged over the other, like in supervision relations, but how this works in detail noone really knows, nor have I gained any insight about how this could work in my own relations.

    I just know that I do admire IEEs for being able to manipulate people where I can't, how do SLEs see me though I do not know. I also get frustrated at IEE's lack of logic, knowledge, and rationality, when they open to me about what they know it seems they do not have any competence or knowledge about anything. IEE's ability to get what they want comes from doing stuff for people, manipulating emotions, etc. So IEEs probably see me as inferior for not being as into people as they are, but I find them a little frustrating because they act like they have nothing to learn from me, when in fact they do, they just don't realize it (or aeren't interested). I feel like SLEs have a similar frustration when they try to get me to take questions of initiative in work, life love, etc, and I argue that its not wise to jump-head first into situations. I do not see SLEs as inferior by the way, so I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

    So there you have it, thats my experience but it says nothing about how the benefactor is in a favorable position with respect to beneficiary.
    Ouch that hurt because I have poor Si and Te :'( .
    I have many ENTJ friends, I don't see them as being inferior though :P, at least, not in the way you described.

    If there's something I feel that's lacking in ENTJs, it's the Si polr. An example of this is ... well I knew a Te-ENTj guy. He mostly dated women whom he thought were very attractive but not marriage material (because of differences in say religion or social class); some of these women were not interested in pursuing anything further with him either because he was not interesting enough or because they did not like his attitude. And then, he complained about how women suck because they only want jerks and they friendzone nice guys, when really, a lot of his gfs did not appreciate the fact he was condescending to them (many of his gfs were not traditionally booksmart; it was nice for them at first when they were like oh he likes quantum physics and he thinks I'm smart, I should try to learn those things impress him; it was not nice later on) regarding their intellect or behaviour (he dated women who were let's say less conservative but then he'd make them feel bad because they didn't carry themselves the way he wanted them to). He also had this idiocy that I find in Si polrs, like they have this arrogance that they are completely infallible and have no accountability to anyone but they forget the fact others are aware of their shortcomings and weaknesses. It's like how I have no idea about the fact that I sound clueless or dumb to others even when I actually know something; I want to sound smart but it comes off as the opposite- I appear dumb. It's the same with ENTJs- they act tough but I am very of their many vulnerabilities.

  4. #4
    surgical penis klinik Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shuawei View Post
    Ouch that hurt because I have poor Si and Te :'( .
    I have many ENTJ friends, I don't see them as being inferior though :P, at least, not in the way you described.

    If there's something I feel that's lacking in ENTJs, it's the Si polr. An example of this is ... well I knew a Te-ENTj guy. He mostly dated women whom he thought were very attractive but not marriage material (because of differences in say religion or social class); some of these women were not interested in pursuing anything further with him either because he was not interesting enough or because they did not like his attitude. And then, he complained about how women suck because they only want jerks and they friendzone nice guys, when really, a lot of his gfs did not appreciate the fact he was condescending to them (many of his gfs were not traditionally booksmart; it was nice for them at first when they were like oh he likes quantum physics and he thinks I'm smart, I should try to learn those things impress him; it was not nice later on) regarding their intellect or behaviour (he dated women who were let's say less conservative but then he'd make them feel bad because they didn't carry themselves the way he wanted them to). He also had this idiocy that I find in Si polrs, like they have this arrogance that they are completely infallible and have no accountability to anyone but they forget the fact others are aware of their shortcomings and weaknesses. It's like how I have no idea about the fact that I sound clueless or dumb to others even when I actually know something; I want to sound smart but it comes off as the opposite- I appear dumb. It's the same with ENTJs- they act tough but I am very of their many vulnerabilities.
    Its weird because the guy you described sounds nothing like the second thing you describe (acting infalliable), he just sounds superficial. I think the way that guy acts is a manifestation of role Fe, and blind Fi. I used to be quiet superficial in my judgements, too, then I realized society isn't some big heirarchy where people are out to get each other (well it can be, in certain environments I guess, but this isn't an example of a healthy environment). This might be an Si polr thing though...I dunno.

    The second thing about acting infalliable: Its wierd because I think people see me that way, as acting infalliable and invulnerable, but this is not how I intend to come off. Honestly I think there are just more alpha and delta types in society and I suspect more beta and gamma irrationals in society, and the producing, valued, Se and Ni if beta and gamma rationals mostly goes unnapreciated by most of society. Which is too bad because its really awesome. Its like I have a sense of humor that isn't expressed solely through jokes or laughter (because humor isn't solely about jokes or laughter) that many people take at face value, not sure why. So maybe you see LIEs this way because you do not appreciate beta/gamma rational humor. But maybe we're talking about two different things?

    Also I did not mean to offend you...but you are calling Si polr a form of "idiocy" is not very nice either...
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    @Typh0n

    Si polr is not a form of a idiocy as such; but I believe that all polrs are a reflection of our ineptitudes in a certain area. I did not mean it in an unkind way; I struggle with my polr a lot- especially in cases where I do understand something but I have difficulty getting my point across. So one could say that I have a type of ... unintelligence but I wouldn't say I am unintelligent. I feel that way about other people's polrs too. I should really edit that sentence, smh.

    What you said about superficiality, yeah, that guy was superficial. However, he had a very arrogant know it all attitude as well. He wanted to show off that he had the best things in life, he dated the most attractive women in life. He showed off other things too: his intelligence, his different extracurriculars. He needed others to be dazzled by his 'proficiency' at Se stuff. There was a need for approval. In contrast, Se doms/auxes usually come off as pretty secure in those areas.

    The guy I mentioned might as well have been yelling, 'LOOK, AT ME, I'M BETTER THAN YOU IN EVERY WAY AND I WILL MAKE YOU FEEL INFERIOR, NOW WORSHIP ME!'

    (and in case someone thinks I'm thinking about my own insecurities, I had an unpleasant experience with him while we were talking about his science and we were relaxed and I talked about something I found misogynistic. His response was to speak in a loud, harsh tone to shut me down and to let me know that HE had more knowledge about the topic which I was talking about and he was more well read. An ESTP friend of mine saw the conversation and felt embarrassed for him and later reprimanded him. I think of the incident as a fallout of the role function (Fe) but his pushy attitude (poor use of Se) reminds me of a demonstration of Si polr.)

    The thing is, if someone wants to exhibit their 'power' all the time, they're also allowing other people to observe and investigate their weaknesses- Si polr which I think is related to difficulty in showing and comprehending signs of weakness (one's own, especially, if I remember correctly). EG, the guy I mentioned, he was hurt that a friend of mine whom he condescended to dumped him but he put on a very macho front post breakup : he dated this hot crazy girl who couldn't keep up with his awesomness. But in the end, it was really highlighting the fact that he had difficulty when it came to choosing partners for himself and having good romantic relationships. That could be used as an example of weak Fi but I think it's also associated with Si polr. You could say ESTjs have similar hangups when they're wondering why their projects/relationships are failing despite forewarning because if I remember correctly Ni polr has difficulty with introspection.

    Also, I wanted to add, I have healthy ENTj friends and one difference between them and the guy I mentioned is that they have learned how to deal with their Si polr. They are understand that sometimes their approach in relationships/friendships, if rough (poor Se hidden agenda), can be detrimental so they work on getting their points across effectively but civilly.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    Benefit relations are relations are types which one benefits from the relation. I am curious how exactly do the types benefit off each other? For instance, if ENFJ and ESFP were in a relationship, ENFJ would request ESFP's Fi. If ESTJ were in a relationship with ENTP, ESTJ would request ENTP's Ti. I'm confused with what this means? What does it mean when ENFJ and ESTJ would benefit off ENFJ and ESTJ leading functions? Can anyone elaborate onto the point?

    In the relations, supposedly, ENFJ will instruct ESFP to use their Ni better. ESTJ will instruct ENTP to use their Si better. Can anyone elaborate what this means?

    Socionics - the16types.info - Benefit relations
    The Beneficiary resolves the problems the Benefactor has on their hidden agenda, which happens to be Beneficiary's strong base function.
    The Benefactor helps the Beneficiary to resolve some of their problems on suggestive, which is Benefactor's strong creative function.

    On example of ESTj and ENTp:
    ENTp base Ne ---benefits---> Ne activating (hidden agenda) of ESTj
    ESTj creative Si ---benefits---> Si suggestive of ENTp

    If you have ever played video games with ESTjs, you'd notice they can be somewhat too linear in their approach, not seeing the various combinations and alternative routes they can take. Seeing potential combinations is the ENTp's main or "program" function of Ne. When ESTj is playing a game together with an ENTp, the ENTp suggests many potential ways some game challenge can be overcome, the ESTj listens and adopts them and tries them out if he deems them as fit. It happens the same way in real world, where ESTj bosses employ ENTps for their Ne "creative vision" and ability to come up with unusual solutions, which is challenging to the ESTj with his or her weak Ne.

    The Beneficiary receives support from the Benefactor's creative function on their own suggestive function. This influence is not up to mental evaluation of the Beneficiary. Instead it inspires and motivates the Beneficiary to get involved in some activity, work, or project. When the Benefactor speaks, his or her general mindset and ideas are appealing to the Beneficiary--all other things being held equal--and the portion of information that comes from Benefactor's creative function moves the Beneficiary to take some action, start up some activities in their life. It could be said that the Benefactor "energetically" inspires the Beneficiary.

    Thus Beneficiaries mentally enrich their Benefactors, while Benefactors help Beneficiaries to realize themselves in life through activities, projects, etc.

    On example of our ESTj and ENTp:
    ENTp base Ne --- sends information for mental evaluation ---> Ne activating (hidden agenda) of ESTj
    ESTj creative Si --- sends an energy impulse for creative realization ---> Si suggestive of ENTp

    If the Benefactor spends too much time with their Beneficiary the Benefactors eventually starts feeling tired and drained, because they are sending energy impulses but not getting them back. The Beneficiary gets too hyped up, and needs to spend some time apart.

    The effect is asymmetric because suggestive function is actually more unconscious than hidden agenda. Suggestive is also a 1-dimensional function with poor "resolution" of information and very low learning capability. The hidden agenda is a "stronger" function in general. Thus, in this relationship, the Benefactor actually partially processes the information coming from Beneficiary's base function. Beneficiary's information is processed and evaluated in accordance to Benefactor's own knowledge, experience, and quadra values (strong ego block functions), and if this information is found lacking the Benefactor can veto it, fully or partially reject it. The Beneficiary has no such ability on their weak 1-dimensional suggestive function which cannot evaluate what the Benefactor is offering on their creative. Thus Beneficiaries have less conscious control in this relationship.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    One way to spot your Beneficiaries among your friends, is to take note of who picks up your ideas and advice and implement them. It may be that you never told that person "do this", still they did it, almost like being compelled by some invisible magical force (that's called socionics). You might recall being in situations where you casually mention some idea in a conversation, and 3 weeks or months later you notice one of your friends has been working on what you have said. You never asked them to do it. You never required them to do anything. And to your surprise they paid so much attention to your suggestion and were moved by something to implement it.

    This is also the tricky side of benefit relations. The Beneficiary doesn't do what the Benefactor tells them directly. If you tell your Beneficiary "go wash the dishes!" they won't immediately get off their seat and run to the kitchen. Their mind selects something out of Benefactor's speech and then they get compelled to realize it.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member erg's Avatar
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    I'll explain my experience with it:

    Benefit is an asymetric relationship; what this means is that one person has the upper hand, or is "on top", while the other is on the "bottom". For example, in the case of IEE and LIE: in this relationship, the LIE feels like they have to please the IEE, so they can get "fed" DS in return. The LIE takes care of all the problems the IEE might have with their HA and PoLR (and this is my own research, especially PoLR since the base function of LIE is -Te/+Ti, which is the PoLR of IEE) since they're naturally strong with them. In return, the IEE gives the LIE Fi, but since the DS of LIE is -Fi, which is the demonstrative of IEE, the beneficiary never feels satisfied, because the demonstrative is something that you're very good at, but at the same time you don't give a crap about (not "valued"). It is "fake" -Fi.

    The benefactor usually finds the beneficiary attractive because their DS is the beneficiary's HA (in this example, -Si/+Se). The one "on top" sees the "bottom" one as lacking in something, like a bit of a mess that must be helped, and the bottom sees the one on top like someone that seems to perform stuff they suck at with relative ease. The benefactor guides the beneficiary towards their HA (since it is their DS) and helps with PoLR (since it's their role). The Beneficiary feels they must please the benefactor, but the benefactor doesn't feel such obligation, which in a negative relation would mean that the benefactor sucks the life out of the Beneficiary, while feeding them crap in return. Depending on whether the two types involved are producing or accepting subtypes, there are differences on how it plays out. Over time, Beneficiary might learn how to ignore benefactor .

    That said, benefit is usually a positive relationship, and a good candidate for marrige after duality and activation. Another name for this relationship is Instructor-Instructee.
    Last edited by erg; 10-09-2016 at 05:19 AM. Reason: add
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    Basically beneficiarys help strengthen each other's weaker functions or come up with different tactic to the point that they wuld look similar
    In order for society to survive, we must all pitch in and cooperate with one another, split the resources fairly.
    If we get greedy, everything will fall apart
    The main reason why there is no long peace is because everything is set and stone.
    Another is that resources are limited and the ones who had the most goes bad because they are in control.

  10. #10
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    "The Beneficiary can see the weakness of the Benefactor, wishing to help their partner to strengthen themselves. Because the strongest point of the Beneficiary is the weak and unconscious point of the Benefactor, the Beneficiary is convinced that they are able to help. However, when the Beneficiary tries to help, the Benefactor usually refuses the help without any good explanation. The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary. This may be sometimes unpleasant and even irritating for the Beneficiary."

    My ex relationship was this way.


    "From aside, relations of benefit look smooth and conflict-free. Initiator of these relations is almost always the benefactor. Beneficiary feels that deep inside the benefactor is positively predisposed towards him. The benefactor tries to encourage and support the beneficiary in any way possible. Reciprocating feedback only happens at initial stages. Further attempts to establish relations on equal conditions are not successful, the reverse connection does not get any better. The benefactor, alas, does not hear the beneficiary. As a consequence of this, beneficiary moves away and tries to keep distance from the benefactor, sometimes may even start to pick on him by way on his base function which is much weaker in benefactor. Thus, these relations can be called a relations of patronage/protection in the absence of reciprocate action. Over time, the beneficiary may begin to completely disregard the benefactor."

    Seems I am more into that one now
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM
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