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  1. #1
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Default SEE who can't stand ILIs - Duality is a sham?

    I'm an SEE who not only can't stand my supposed dual ILI, but also can't relate at all to descriptions of what our relationship is supposed to be like.

    I find ILIs insufferably stuffy, arrogant, stuck in their heads, and locked into their worldviews. I'm supposed to show them the world, while they go around treating the world like they're too good for it. Yuck. I'm supposed to draw them out of their heads and make them experience stuff? I'm supposed to push them into action? I spend all day inactive, lol! Except for going to work and stuff obviously. Other than that, I hardly leave the house, as I'm not a social extravert. (But I am a cognitive extravert.) So I'm in no position to drag an ILI into action, or into whatever social even he'd want to attend. I really don't know what ILIs like to do, although I guess that would depend upon the ILI as with any other type. Everyone has different interests and preferences anyway. I'm also supposed to be an "aggressor" in sexual activities but frankly couldn't care less about sex, and would not be someone to initiate let alone aggress on that. I literally won't even think of it unless it's brought up by someone else, or by the romance styles description I just read.

    Anyway, I really can't see myself in a relationship with an ILI. At least not a long-lived or happy one.

    What do you think? Does duality really work? Because it just sounds like bullshit.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.
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  2. #2
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Do you see any of the romance styles working for you? Do you agree with the SEE description for you? Possibilities include; maybe diff quadra, maybe just not had much interaction with ILI's, maybe just an individual who gets on with other types better

    Sometimes systems just don't work for individuals.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Do you see any of the romance styles working for you?
    No, none of them work.

    Do you agree with the SEE description for you?
    Never read it as I don't use descriptions to type. I use the IEs (or functions on the MBTI side of things).

    Possibilities include; maybe diff quadra, maybe just not had much interaction with ILI's, maybe just an individual who gets on with other types better

    Sometimes systems just don't work for individuals.
    Yeah, one of those is likely it.

    But still. Most of the time if you say you don't get along with your dual, people will tell you you're mistyped. I'm pretty sure I'm SEE so I'm criticizing the system based on that
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.

  4. #4
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    What do you think? Does duality really work? Because it just sounds like bullshit.
    It works but many idealize it, representing it as a paradise-like relationship where everything is ideal.

    This is inaccurate, because dual relationships are not only a union of the opposites but also a struggle between them. It's not uncommon to have a love-hate relationship with your dual-seeking function, which is leading function of your dual. Without this struggle the relationship loses its energy, spark, and interest (which is what happens in illusionary relations, they fizzle out).

    SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic

    Viktor Gulenko. If duals have united into one pair, tell us, is this a consonant or a dissonant union?
    Audience: Dissonant from which point of view?
    V.G. From point of view of relations between them. Is it easy for them to merge into one? Is such synthesis easy?
    Audience: It's not easy for them to come together, but after it's difficult to separate them ... [inaudible conversation].
    V.G. This is right. This means that the nature of dual relations is an antithetic synthesis i.e. synthesis of the opposites that struggle with one another but then unite: this is called unity and conflict of the opposites. This is the formula of what kind of thinking?
    Audience: Dialectic thinking.
    V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
    Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
    Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
    V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring. Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

    Thus, it is not possible to use formal logic to understand dual relations. They can only be understood through dialectic logic that understands that even if they are fighting they are still one whole. Only this kind of logic is able to explain these relations. Someone might say: "We have total harmony. We don't have any disagreements. There is nothing to smooth out." I don't believe it, because I know that dual relations have to go through these intensifications. Without them, you will get bored by one another. Without this there is no raisin, no spice, it would be uninteresting. This would have been static relations, while dual relations are introverted, that is closed-off autonomous relations, but also dynamic relations that are always changing.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    I'm supposed to show them the world, while they go around treating the world like they're too good for it. Yuck. I'm supposed to draw them out of their heads and make them experience stuff? I'm supposed to push them into action? I spend all day inactive, lol! Except for going to work and stuff obviously. Other than that, I hardly leave the house, as I'm not a social extravert. (But I am a cognitive extravert.) So I'm in no position to drag an ILI into action, or into whatever social even he'd want to attend.
    These are SEE stereotypes that confuse cognition for behavior. SEEs have high awareness of their environment from what I have observed (from a safe distance), not necessarily going out every evening or traveling about the world. You already show your duals "the world" by sitting in the same room with them and commenting on the interior. There is a SEE woman in my work group. She is a techie, very serious, and studious. Based on superficial type stereotypes I wouldn't have thought her as SEE. That she is my "cognitive" conflictor became clear only when we started working together.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    But still. Most of the time if you say you don't get along with your dual, people will tell you you're mistyped. I'm pretty sure I'm SEE so I'm criticizing the system based on that
    It's happened before, that's why it's a suggestion. I have an ILE friend who insists on typing himself as EIE. He says that socionics duality is unimpressive to him (of course, he is trying to date his supervisees! the LSIs) and is in process of reinventing it from scratch. If little of socionics works for you, take into consideration that you may be mistyped.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    It works but many idealize it, representing it as a paradise-like relationship where everything is ideal.

    This is inaccurate, because dual relationships are not only a union of the opposites but also a struggle between them. It's not uncommon to have a love-hate relationship with your dual-seeking function, which is leading function of your dual. Without this struggle the relationship loses its energy, spark, and interest (which is what happens in illusionary relations, they fizzle out).
    Admittedly most of my annoyance is at the idealization.

    [INDENT]SHS - Relations Between Duals are Dialectic
    I've read this exact interview many times and TBH I still don't know WTF he's saying. It just sounds like a used car salesman trying to sell a lemon.

    You already show your duals "the world" by sitting in the same room with them and commenting on the interior.
    That sound really boring, no offense. Commenting on the interior? Why would I comment on plainly obvious things in front of my face?

    There is a SEE woman in my work group. She is a techie, very serious, and studious. Based on superficial type stereotypes I wouldn't have thought her as SEE. That she is my "cognitive" conflictor became clear only when we started working together.
    She sounds badass. Haha. Is it difficult to work with your conflictor? Did you work out how to work together without, er, conflicting too much?

    It's happened before, that's why it's a suggestion. I have an ILE friend who insists on typing himself as EIE. He says that socionics duality is unimpressive to him (of course, he is trying to date his supervisees! the LSIs) and is in process of reinventing it from scratch. If little of socionics works for you, take into consideration that you may be mistyped.
    I've seen that particular mistype happen a lot for some reason (ILE mistypes as EIE). I think there is some kind of overidentification with the hidden agenda problem.

    Anyway, yeah, I see that point. I could be mistyped. But to be fair, little of type theory as a whole works for me. I've read countless different authors and Jung himself and I still fundamentally relate to all of the IEs and functions. I see myself in all of them.

    And then on the other side you have the romance styles where I don't relate to any of them and am honestly flabbergasted that people even think like that at all.

    So no matter what type I am, I'm still going to relate heavily to other types and not relate to things I'm "supposed" to relate to ... so in essence I'm always going to seem mistyped.

    edit

    Basically what I want in a relationship is like someone to cook food for me, clean the house, all of that boring stuff. Like a maid/cook in one. Except in a relationship, so I don't have to pay them. Somehow, I really, really doubt an ILI would be that person for me.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.

  6. #6
    corona Hawthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post

    edit

    Basically what I want in a relationship is like someone to cook food for me, clean the house, all of that boring stuff. Like a maid/cook in one. Except in a relationship, so I don't have to pay them. Somehow, I really, really doubt an ILI would be that person for me.
    this sounds like you value even if it's...in a some kind of way.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinclair View Post
    this sounds like you value even if it's...in a some kind of way.
    So... Se valuers don't need to eat?

    I really doubt I value Si. Couldn't care less about comfort or whatever lol. It's boring/pointless. I just need a maid and cook.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.

  8. #8
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinclair View Post
    this sounds like you value even if it's...in a some kind of way.
    Though tbh I have known ILI's to say they would happily stay at home and play house if their partner earned a higher wage than them. It's not unchartered territory.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"
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  9. #9
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Admittedly most of my annoyance is at the idealization.
    I've read this exact interview many times and TBH I still don't know WTF he's saying. It just sounds like a used car salesman trying to sell a lemon.
    He is referring to philosophical, and one can say even theological concept that the world is based on the struggle and unity of two opposites. They oppose each other because they are opposites, but at the same time they cannot exist without one another, this is the unity.

    If you do a google search for this phrase you'll find some reading supplementation on the topic, ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_of_opposites

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    That sound really boring, no offense. Commenting on the interior? Why would I comment on plainly obvious things in front of my face?
    I was trying to get another point across, that as an extrovert your primary function attitude is always directed to the outside and for ILI this function is too blocked, and that it is irrelevant whether you stay in or go out--you'll always be "showing them the world"--even if you will be floating together in a vacuum you'll still remain an extrovert.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    She sounds badass. Haha. Is it difficult to work with your conflictor? Did you work out how to work together without, er, conflicting too much?
    Work? We couldn't even decide who will hold the coffee and who will open the door on our first work meeting over lunch. We stood there for 3 minutes, speaking and gesturing to each other out of sync. The conversation was fine, she sounded reliable and professional. Then she shot down one of my propositions, even though she delivered it with humor, things got awkward enough that I took my part of the project and asked her to meet for another lunch in exactly two weeks. We worked separately from that time on only meeting to check in on work completed. It was complicated to say the least. I wasn't yet introduced to socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Basically what I want in a relationship is like someone to cook food for me, clean the house, all of that boring stuff. Like a maid/cook in one. Except in a relationship, so I don't have to pay them. Somehow, I really, really doubt an ILI would be that person for me.
    I used to rent a place with a guy who I'm quite sure was an ILI. He was a great cook, made a point of learning all the techniques and checking all the stores in the area for the best meat, in terms of freshness quality and deals. Cleaning... none of us were too enthused with it (there were 4 guys renting this place). When the common area got too dirty, we got together one of weekend days and scrubbed the place down and had a couple beers after. The ILI guy would put something on the grill or we'd order a pizza. I doubt he'd ever clean for free--it's what I learned about Gamma types, nobody in their quadra does work without pay--but I'm sure you can clean together with your ILI dual.

    Have you ever dated someone of this type, or is this ILI aversion strictly theoretical i.e. that you can't stand how they are described?
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  10. #10
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinclair View Post
    this sounds like you value even if it's...in a some kind of way.
    It sounds like self-preservation instinct is strych's weakest one, he or she doesn't want to take care of him or herself and wants to delegate the self-maintenance tasks to someone else.


    sp-last — When the Self-Preservation instinct is least developed, attending to the basics of life [like cooking and cleaning] does not come easily. It will not always occur to such individuals that they need to eat or sleep properly. Environmental factors will be relatively insignificant, and they will tend to lack the drive to accumulate wealth or property – or even to care about such matters. Time and resource management will typically be neglected, often with seriously detrimental effects to their own careers, social life, and material well-being.

    SP-last: The two self-preservation-lasts, sx/so and so/sx, steer clear of the earth element, which itself has a significant amount of dull weight to it, a bland stuckness, ‘a stick in the mud’. So, by contrast, the two sp-lasts are the butterfly stackings, spinning off a considerable amount of shimmer and sparkle, as they’re unsullied by dirt (earth) and the sullen droop and hunched seriousness of self-pres’s mundane concerns. This ungrounded quality is a double-edged sword though: For others, a welcome break-away from the monotony of hardened routines that center around self-pres; for those under the direct influence of these two stackings, however, there’s a particular incapacitation, a signature difficulty moving forward in certain areas of life — perpetual ‘immaturity’ on a practical level, sometimes a nomadic quality due to their characteristic ignorance around how to set firm steps and plant roots underneath their feet, or a wondering why one would even want do so.

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