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  1. #1
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    Default +/~: Ne vs. Ni and Anxiety vs. Apprehension

    Socionics - the16types.info - Signs of Functions (+/-)
    Socionics - the16types.info - plus/minus by Victor Gulenko




    Over time, I've noticed a lot of reports from particularly ENFPs and INFPs (Delta NFs), describing issues with anxiety. Sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly, this is attributed to their Ne function, that infinite negative possibilities in their environment cause them to overanalyze every situation, and, as a result, behave very anxiously.





    However, Deltans possess the Ne~ element, the defining feature of which seems to be the unimpeded spread of potentially useful information, no matter how absurd, strange, or unacceptable it may appear:
    − Ne - hopelessness, alternatives, negative potential, meaninglessness, absurdity, paradox, the forgotten and the old, insight, mediocrity, commonness, repressed possibilities, reality, disbelief, sensation

    -Ne = the unusual, alternative and bizarre. Despite its groundedness, this quadra respects unusual and talented people who offer creative alternative possibilities. The spread of new information is not impeded, no matter how avant-garde it might be. In Delta groups, there occur periodic flashes of sensationalism and spikes of interest centered around original people who put forward alternative ideas of development.
    ^ This function seems to take the most libertine approach to new ideas, possibilities, and information.





    While it may seem quite plausible that Ne~ could result in some sort of anxiety in anticipation of possible dangers in one's immediate environment, this existential "anxiety" described actually seems to match up better with the Ni~ element of the Beta quadra:
    − Ni - past, accounting for errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a worrying premonition, a warning, the ripening of a crisis, revolution, a leap in time, ability to hedge against troubles, sudden shifts, discordant description, the moment of decisive action, divergence, deviation;

    -Ni = desire to bypass danger. They aim to avoid previously committed mistakes. In their groups, experience, skill, know-how, sophistication are highly valued. They feel confident in extreme situations.
    ^ Ni~ is acutely aware of the development of potential dangers and takes every possible measure to bypass them, resulting in particularly restrained personalities.






    In addition, these Delta NF types often self-identify as Enneagram 6, which, if likened to any element in Socionics or MBTI, best matches Ni~:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est
    Beta Quadra possesses many of the elements that would provide the ingredients for a Type Six, including but not limited to the positional hierarchy created by having blocked with , producing the quadra with the most rigid "chain of command" and distinct placements within a group or multiple groups. It features an aversion to Extroverted Irrationality in the form of , an avoidance of unpredictable situations with multiple variables and undefined, raw potential to develop into anything at a moment's notice, with a simultaneous appreciation for guidance, foresight, and a defined future/path as provided by those who favor . Type Six is almost always afraid of what they cannot predict, what is not certain or identified easily and quickly, as that is the incarnation of chaos, and chaos can lead to a breach of security. Alternatively, Type Six seeks guidance, and, in some cases, authority to help them understand what's what in the world, so that they can feel safe without worrying about what might be, or what could be -- what possible negative outcomes there might be awaiting just around the corner that could shatter the Six's idea of reality and his own safety.




    Could this indicate large-scale cases of IEIs self-identifying as EIIs, mistaking their Ni (in this case, Ni~) with Ne (in this case, Ne~)?





    It should be noted that there is plenty of grounds for Ne+ as it appears in the Alpha quadra to be mistaken for Ni+ (as seen in the Gamma quadra), or Ni in general, due to a focus on fulfilling clearly-defined future visions, rather than the Deltan openness to the avant-garde of Ne~:
    +Ne = promising ideas. In this quadra, which can be attributed the element of air, there are frequent talks about the future, the unexplored and unknown possibilities. They may seem to be incorrigible dreamers. And this is so: they look out further than anyone, beyond the horizon, they put forward "crazy" theories and discuss them with pleasure. Some of these theories, however, are destined to have long lives, so long that they will outlast their creators.

    + Ne - prospects, opportunities, positive potential, core meaning, essence, principle, new ideas, advancing hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastical, hopefulness;
    ^ Ne+ creates elaborate visions for the future and stops at nothing to make them a reality. This can easily be mistaken for some of the more stereotypical definitions of Ni.







    There's also a risk of Ni~ types failing to realize the true nature of their function, due to a misattribution of specifically Ni+ traits to all of Ni and a failure to understand Ni~:
    +Ni = constraining their hot temper, these sociotypes prefer to advance gradually into the future, though they may sharply reject obsolete ideas, criticizing past mistakes. Advancing step by step, they generally believe in the linearity of development, i.e. according to their deep convictions, it is only necessary to remove obstacles, remnants of the past, and immediately this will open endless possibilities for growth. This quadra is not afraid of chaos and upheavals: they know how to conduct their work under conditions of change, risk and confusion.


    + Ni - future, change in the situation over time, prediction, premonition, gradual development, evolution, gradual ascent, the dynamics of change, the flow of time, imagination, harmonious description, subtle step-by-step changes, convergence, confluence;
    ^ Ni+, along with Ne+, seems to be the function that best matches the common stereotype of Ni, of seeing possibilities and visions in the distant future and stopping at nothing to bring them to fruition.






    In a nutshell, Ne~ as it appears in the Delta quadra produces an attraction to the strange, the macabre, while Ni~ (Beta quadra) produces an aversion to any possible unforeseeable threat and a strong desire to control one's future. And, be reminded that the portrait of the EIE is named Hamlet.



    Could this mean there are several EII INFjs (INFP in MBTI) who are actually IEI INFps (INFJ)?

  2. #2
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Thinking Ni and Ne defined by MBTI is the same as Ni and Ne defined by Socionics is the first mistake. One must study the differences well enough. It would allow one to understand why someone of a particular MBTI type can be variously different in Socionics and vice versa.

    Study:

    1. The differences in the definitions of the same labelled functions between MBTI, Socionics and Carl Jung.
    2. What part of psychology Socionics and MBTI tries to achieve. As in how each of the models should be intendedly perceived.

    And do not use your understanding of one typology system to understand the other. You'll be incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    Thinking Ni and Ne defined by MBTI is the same as Ni and Ne defined by Socionics is the first mistake. One must study the differences well enough. It would allow one to understand why someone of a particular MBTI type can be variously different in Socionics and vice versa.

    Study:

    1. The differences in the definitions of the same labelled functions between MBTI, Socionics and Carl Jung.
    2. What part of psychology Socionics and MBTI tries to achieve. As in how each of the models should be intendedly perceived.

    And do not use your understanding of one typology system to understand the other. You'll be incorrect.
    Well all the information I used to pose these questions was based on Socionics elements rather than MBTI functions. None of this is from any MBTI article. The attributes connected to these +/- functions were listed in the actual Socionics articles themselves.


    The only connect I made between the two systems is that these types self-identify as ENFP or INFP. While they may very well be either be or in Socionics, I consider most of the basis behind MBTI to be inaccurate in comparison.


    If you're one Socionics type, you should identify with that rather than with whatever you are in MBTI. The reasoning behind this is that MBTI functions have little in-depth analysis behind how a function behaves, giving only vague stereotypes instead. Every purely MBTI functions test, then, is inherently flawed because it analyzes what you alledgedly "value" or how you tend to behave in life situations as can vary in relationship to Nurture/life experiences, whereas Socionics would analyze the more concrete processes behind your actual thought.


    Socionics measures the actual cognition itself, MBTI can be tainted in results yielding because factors in an MBTI test can be tainted by upbringing and life experiences. If you know your Sociotype, you should abandon MBTI altogether and identify with your Sociotype instead -- therefore, if these xNFPs in MBTI are actually a "different" Sociotype, they should switch over to that because it's more quantifiable in ways MBTI is not.



    Basically you can't be any MBTI type except what you think you are because it isn't very concrete or organized -- but you are always your Socionics type, and you will always process information that way.

  4. #4
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Socionics - the16types.info - Signs of Functions (+/-)
    Socionics - the16types.info - plus/minus by Victor Gulenko




    Over time, I've noticed a lot of reports from particularly ENFPs and INFPs (Delta NFs), describing issues with anxiety. Sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly, this is attributed to their Ne function, that infinite negative possibilities in their environment cause them to overanalyze every situation, and, as a result, behave very anxiously.





    However, Deltans possess the Ne~ element, the defining feature of which seems to be the unimpeded spread of potentially useful information, no matter how absurd, strange, or unacceptable it may appear:
    ^ This function seems to take the most libertine approach to new ideas, possibilities, and information.





    While it may seem quite plausible that Ne~ could result in some sort of anxiety in anticipation of possible dangers in one's immediate environment, this existential "anxiety" described actually seems to match up better with the Ni~ element of the Beta quadra:
    ^ Ni~ is acutely aware of the development of potential dangers and takes every possible measure to bypass them, resulting in particularly restrained personalities.






    In addition, these Delta NF types often self-identify as Enneagram 6, which, if likened to any element in Socionics or MBTI, best matches Ni~:






    Could this indicate large-scale cases of IEIs self-identifying as EIIs, mistaking their Ni (in this case, Ni~) with Ne (in this case, Ne~)?





    It should be noted that there is plenty of grounds for Ne+ as it appears in the Alpha quadra to be mistaken for Ni+ (as seen in the Gamma quadra), or Ni in general, due to a focus on fulfilling clearly-defined future visions, rather than the Deltan openness to the avant-garde of Ne~:
    ^ Ne+ creates elaborate visions for the future and stops at nothing to make them a reality. This can easily be mistaken for some of the more stereotypical definitions of Ni.







    There's also a risk of Ni~ types failing to realize the true nature of their function, due to a misattribution of specifically Ni+ traits to all of Ni and a failure to understand Ni~:
    ^ Ni+, along with Ne+, seems to be the function that best matches the common stereotype of Ni, of seeing possibilities and visions in the distant future and stopping at nothing to bring them to fruition.






    In a nutshell, Ne~ as it appears in the Delta quadra produces an attraction to the strange, the macabre, while Ni~ (Beta quadra) produces an aversion to any possible unforeseeable threat and a strong desire to control one's future. And, be reminded that the portrait of the EIE is named Hamlet.



    Could this mean there are several EII INFjs (INFP in MBTI) who are actually IEI INFps (INFJ)?
    This is interesting. Will read later.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    I think -Si's desire to avoid discomfort and inconvenience also needs to be taken into account, so maybe delta NFs are comfortable with the idea of the strange and the macabre but the actual experience fails to live up to the imagination because weak Si is unable to minimize the unpleasant aspects. Which may lead to the "Oh shit, everything sucks" thing?

    I don't actually know what I'm talking about anymore. But yeah, this is interesting.

  6. #6
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Well all the information I used to pose these questions was based on Socionics elements rather than MBTI functions. None of this is from any MBTI article. The attributes connected to these +/- functions were listed in the actual Socionics articles themselves.


    The only connect I made between the two systems is that these types self-identify as ENFP or INFP. While they may very well be either be or in Socionics, I consider most of the basis behind MBTI to be inaccurate in comparison.


    If you're one Socionics type, you should identify with that rather than with whatever you are in MBTI. The reasoning behind this is that MBTI functions have little in-depth analysis behind how a function behaves, giving only vague stereotypes instead. Every purely MBTI functions test, then, is inherently flawed because it analyzes what you alledgedly "value" or how you tend to behave in life situations as can vary in relationship to Nurture/life experiences, whereas Socionics would analyze the more concrete processes behind your actual thought.


    Socionics measures the actual cognition itself, MBTI can be tainted in results yielding because factors in an MBTI test can be tainted by upbringing and life experiences. If you know your Sociotype, you should abandon MBTI altogether and identify with your Sociotype instead -- therefore, if these xNFPs in MBTI are actually a "different" Sociotype, they should switch over to that because it's more quantifiable in ways MBTI is not.



    Basically you can't be any MBTI type except what you think you are because it isn't very concrete or organized -- but you are always your Socionics type, and you will always process information that way.
    I somewhat disagree and actually think it's the opposite but not in terms of accuracy but in terms of mental processes. Because socionics cares more about the attitude towards the use of each of functions it's definitions are less defined as the workings of the mental processes itself but rather how they manifest in an individual and how those manifestations deal with the external world. MBTI's aim is to define the mental workings of one's mind while socionics aim is to define an individual's attitude to the external world. That's why socionics can be more solid and systematic. If you've realised the function definitions in socionics, you'd realise that what they do is give descriptive manifestations of someone's external and thoughtful attitude to a particular function. They do not actually give the process in methods that allow one to empathise the very clockwork of that function. But that's more of what MBTI wishes to do, get the clockwork and then use it to see the external manifestations. This will of course be more difficult because people would find it difficult to empathise psychological processes alternate to manifestations because one is a result (clear), and one is the specific mental process (unclear). MBTI's issue is that it avoided that and tried to do all these... stereotypings and archetypes, with absolutely no help from MBTI enthusiasts like a lot of typoC. You get confusion everywhere. It's only natural because humans presume more of what they perceive and judge before seeing the intricate understandings of it.

    So yes, socionics is probably more solid (not sure about accurate) but it's not more about the mental processing. It's more about psychological manifestations. MBTI is less solid because people screw it up because it's tried to start with the processing and because it's difficult to define in manners people understand, people just presume a lot and turn it into some vague nonsense socionics wannabe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    I somewhat disagree and actually think it's the opposite but not in terms of accuracy but in terms of mental processes. Because socionics cares more about the attitude towards the use of each of functions it's definitions are less defined as the workings of the mental processes itself but rather how they manifest in an individual and how those manifestations deal with the external world. MBTI's aim is to define the mental workings of one's mind while socionics aim is to define an individual's attitude to the external world. That's why socionics can be more solid and systematic. If you've realised the function definitions in socionics, you'd realise that what they do is give descriptive manifestations of someone's external and thoughtful attitude to a particular function. They do not actually give the process in methods that allow one to empathise the very clockwork of that function. But that's more of what MBTI wishes to do, get the clockwork and then use it to see the external manifestations. This will of course be more difficult because people would find it difficult to empathise psychological processes alternate to manifestations because one is a result (clear), and one is the specific mental process (unclear). MBTI's issue is that it avoided that and tried to do all these... stereotypings and archetypes, with absolutely no help from MBTI enthusiasts like a lot of typoC. You get confusion everywhere. It's only natural because humans presume more of what they perceive and judge before seeing the intricate understandings of it.

    So yes, socionics is probably more solid (not sure about accurate) but it's not more about the mental processing. It's more about psychological manifestations. MBTI is less solid because people screw it up because it's tried to start with the processing and because it's difficult to define in manners people understand, people just presume a lot and turn it into some vague nonsense socionics wannabe.
    Actually -- wasn't it said at one point that Ni in MBTI best matches the description of in Soc, and that Si matches best with ? That may have had something to do with why Jung personally believed "Ni" was the function worst suited for logical thinking.


    I don't intend to further mesh these systems together like I seem to have been doing, but I'm wondering on this particular bit. I will look further into the Socionics system though, since ultimately it seems the superior and less ambiguous of the two.
    Last edited by Cygnus; 04-25-2015 at 10:31 PM. Reason: got a word wrong
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  8. #8
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Actually -- wasn't it said at one point that Ni in MBTI best matches the description of in Soc, and that Si matches best with ? That may have had something to do with why Jung personally believed "Ni" was the function worst suited for logical thinking.


    I don't intend to further mesh these systems together like I seem to have been doing, but I'm wondering on this particular bit. I will look further into the Socionics system though, since ultimately it seems the superior and less ambiguous of the two.
    It's interesting a bit because a lot of the time they can match similarities with other functions, but I'd wager that the coin of Ni/Se in MBTI would have traits of both and in socionics. It is clear in the manner that inferior Se in INXJs in MBTI produce some particular traits of in socionics which may make an INXJ be an user socionics wise. Whereas Si in MBTI is more about experiential memory, in socionics is more about sensorial personal alterations to an external environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oaky View Post
    It's interesting a bit because a lot of the time they can match similarities with other functions, but I'd wager that the coin of Ni/Se in MBTI would have traits of both and in socionics. It is clear in the manner that inferior Se in INXJs in MBTI produce some particular traits of in socionics which may make an INXJ be an user socionics wise. Whereas Si in MBTI is more about experiential memory, in socionics is more about sensorial personal alterations to an external environment.
    That's the same definition I've used for Si in MBTI, and it's often been applied to MBTI discussion. Not to imply I was right about it.

    The issue I have with the classical association of Si with memory is that 1) it assumes that Si and Ni process information in different ways (as opposed to the Pi elements of and processing different information in the same way), 2) it implies Ni has some sort of functional superiority to Si, since Si would be nothing but pure recollection of data while Ni would find a "deeper" use of it, and 3) it associates the function Si with a neurological process, Memory, without associating its sister process (Ni) with a similar neurological process in a different "direction." Personality psychology shouldn't assume it understands Neuroscience -- it should be overlaid with all other approaches to psychology, including Neuroscience.



    Aside from the association with MBTI types and functions, did this thread show a bad understanding of the +/~ elements, or was it more or less on track? This is really interesting.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Jeez so much fucking confusion going on. I have to sleep soon so I will respond more in depth at a different time but please realize that socionics and the enneagram are different theories and they are not related. Also @Oaky I really disagree with your understanding of Si especially in the MBTI and I think you don't understand it well at all and is reducing a very complex function to something that has little to actually do with it, but I would have to explain at a later time. Si, in a strict sense, has nothing to do with memory. That's a gross simplification of Si as a function. Memory as s cognitive tool is not related to the functions.

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