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Thread: Temperament

  1. #1
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Default Temperament

    The Glory of Temperament in Typing:

    [LSE, ESE, LIE, EIE; Ej]:
    Create Change; Affect the Situation; Take Action; Influence an Outcome; Participate

    [IEE, ILE, SEE, SLE; Ep]:
    Engage Impulses and Achieve Desires; Follow Whims; Staccato Power; Energy is in Strong, Quick Punches; Perform

    [LSI, ESI, LII, EII; Ij]:
    Establish Stability and Order; Eliminate Chaos and Confusion; Clarify, Define; Rigidity and Strictness; Stabilize

    [IEI, ILI, SEI, SLI; Ip]:
    Adapt and Conform; Go with the Flow; Observe and Manuever; Perceive the Situation; Fluidity; Spectate

    • If Ej, then your Ip elements are the means (Ej elements are the ends)
    • If Ep, then your Ij elements are the means (Ep elements are the ends)
    • If Ij, then your Ep elements are the means (Ij elements are the ends)
    • If Ip, then your Ej elements are the means (Ip elements are the ends)



    For Ej's, the only good use of spectating [Ip] is to better serve taking action and affecting things. [Ej]
    For Ep's, the only good use of stabilizing [Ij] is using it to help follow whims and desires wherever they lead. [Ep]
    For Ij's, the only good use of performing [Ep] is using it to establish order and stabilize chaos in the environment. [Ij]
    For Ip's, the only good use of taking action [Ej] is to better serve the perception of the situation. [Ip] (taking action leads to observable evidence to interpret)

    Let's look at Beta Quadra:

    • LSI - ( [Ij] [Ep])

      Establishes logical order and clarity of physical, operational systems and hierarchies by enforcing them with practicalities and volitional force. If the system doesn't organize itself neatly and tidily, get in there and force it to organize itself; get your hands dirty. Performance serves Establishing Order.

    • EIE - ( [Ej] [Ip])

      Attempts to affect people emotionally and psychologically by observing their hidden tendencies ( is perceiving the intangible fields objects radiate, their intangible affect on the environment or others) or their internal mental state that is derivable from their behavior. Doesn't necessarily care about understanding people like the IEI does, cares about being able to affect people emotionally and psychologically. Observation serves Taking Action

    • SLE - ( [Ep] [Ij])

      Manages to follow physical whims and desires by manipulating logical hierarchies and structures to get what they want. These types are the "play-the-game" kind of people (along with some other types), and they are very good at getting what they want through the manipulation of organized systems. They know how to work their way up the ranks through sheer skill and effort and then once they get there they know how to pressure and manipulate the system into giving the SLE what it wants. Established Systems and Stability serves Impulses and Desires.

    • IEI - ( [Ip] [Ej])

      Attempts to understand people for the purpose of perceiving the situation that is the human condition by taking action emotionally and affecting people psychologically to see how they react and how they behave in response to better clarify the mental picture of how people operate on a hidden, psychological level. Any time an IEI is trying to affect someone or play a part in something, it is usually to better serve their perception of either the situation or their perception of human nature. Taking Emotional Initiative or Action serves the Observation and Spectating of the Situation and/or People as a psychological entity.

  2. #2
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est

    Thanks for posting this. Really helpful.

    As an Ij, I identify greatly with an internal need to increase stability and minimize chaos for myself. This explains to a large extent the problems I encounter with many Eps. Our goals are almost diametrically opposed, sometimes even with the same valued IMs. Also why emotional misunderstandings seem to affect me worse than they do my supervisors.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    @Alea_iacta_est

    Thanks for posting this. Really helpful.

    As an Ij, I identify greatly with an internal need to increase stability and minimize chaos for myself. This explains to a large extent the problems I encounter with many Eps. Our goals are almost diametrically opposed, sometimes even with the same valued IMs.
    Mirror Partners (Ij and Ep within same Quadra) tend toward allying with each other but disputes quickly arise over focus, so it would be rather easy to notice it with those with the same valued elements as you. LII and ILE, for example, can get along rather fine together, but you will notice they are always trying to drag the other person to their Lead Function's camp. The LII keeps insisting on clarifying and establishing structure to unrefined ideas in order to develop an understanding, but the ILE wants to keep going and keep finding even more raw, unrefined ideas before even considering the possibility of refining them, so it's like a mental tug-of-war when they have to work together on something. They both value the same exact elements, but they tend toward undo-ing and re-purposing the other's work. This is why I generally find the opposing temperament (Ij and Ep, Ip and Ej) to be the more despicable in inter-type relations than the other temperament relations. So we arrive at the conclusion that the same values, while helpful, are still somewhat subordinate to the element ordering (temperament) within Model A, and that is why you encounter conflict with those who even share the same IM elements with you and are of the opposing temperament.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    This has actually also helped me solidify Ij vs. Ip for myself, too.

    I can't imagine doing so much work (Je) to satisfy a need to perceive. It's like ... IDK, going out of the way to make lots of friends just so you can watch them post interesting things on Facebook. Sounds completely bizarre.

    Maybe I am reading this wrong though.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    I can't imagine doing so much work (Je) to satisfy a need to perceive. It's like ... IDK, going out of the way to make lots of friends just so you can watch them post interesting things on Facebook. Sounds completely bizarre.
    Remember that Ip types are very passive in the first place; their objective is to not have to act, it is to simply perceive and adjust to float along with the current. Any sort of action that an Ip takes will either serve perception of the situation (think like a mathematical function, plugging in numbers into f(x) is action, f(n) is the observable result to perceive) or will be so minimal as to allow things to flow their way to the result. So while Ip types do take action for perception, they tend toward taking as minimal action as possible.

    A way to describe this would be through Ej vs Ip perspectives in this situation:

    You must travel through a heavy forest filled with brambles and obstacles to the other side.

    The Ej perspective would be to take a straight-line path through to ensure quickness and thus change the environment. Thus, you seem them trying to power through the thickening brambles of the forest to get to the other side. Thus the path stays straight-lined and motivated.

    The Ip perspective would be to just follow along the natural course of the forest even if it takes longer, as it takes less effort. Any obstacle or brambles in the way are noted, and the Ip avoids them by maneuvering around it in an effort to conserve energy. Thus the path tends toward winding and bending, fluidly adapting to the environment.

  6. #6
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Remember that Ip types are very passive in the first place; their objective is to not have to act, it is to simply perceive and adjust to float along with the current. Any sort of action that an Ip takes will either serve perception of the situation (think like a mathematical function, plugging in numbers into f(x) is action, f(n) is the observable result to perceive) or will be so minimal as to allow things to flow their way to the result. So while Ip types do take action for perception, they tend toward taking as minimal action as possible.

    A way to describe this would be through Ej vs Ip perspectives in this situation:

    You must travel through a heavy forest filled with brambles and obstacles to the other side.

    The Ej perspective would be to take a straight-line path through to ensure quickness and thus change the environment. Thus, you seem them trying to power through the thickening brambles of the forest to get to the other side. Thus the path stays straight-lined and motivated.

    The Ip perspective would be to just follow along the natural course of the forest even if it takes longer, as it takes less effort. Any obstacle or brambles in the way are noted, and the Ip avoids them by maneuvering around it in an effort to conserve energy. Thus the path tends toward winding and bending, fluidly adapting to the environment.
    As someone who is trying to reconcile MBTI/JCF with Socionics ... I guess, the concept of a passive Ip type is still a source of discomfort for me because of the way the MBTI IxxJ descriptions are.

    One of the common internet socionics typings I get is SEI so I've read up on the type, it's probably the Ip type I know most about, and my impression is this: despite being passive Ip types, they still do seem quite driven to provide nice surroundings, comfort, beauty, pleasant atmosphere, etc. to others. I get that this in service of the internal need for those things and you've got to control your external environment to make sure your own needs are being met but it still seems like a lot of work to me. (Now who sounds lazy, huh, Arcana??! Don't ever make fun of the alphas again.)

    Similarly, what you said about IEIs and how they take emotional action to affect people psychologically to understand the human condition better: to be honest, I have tried that shit and it is HARD WORK. The kind of forethought you have to put into what you say, how you present yourself to someone, engineering reactions ... like, I get what it means to want to understand, but the payoff doesn't seem like it's worth the effort.

    And if the effort is minimal ... well if you don't put in a lot then you're not going to get very much in return either, right? It seems like a double bind to me.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Static - Dynamic and Temperament, A Hypothesis.

    Static - Distinct boundaries between things. Operate in clearly defined steps or paces (Ij is systematic and methodical, transitioning from step to step distinctly, Ep is snappy and quick-witted, flinging themselves in the most favorable direction)

    Dynamic - General fluidity between things. Operate in a highly fluid fashion with gradual transitions between things. (Ej is powerful and firm, embodying the concept of momentum, Ip is adaptive and flexible, maneuvering around the environment before them)

    Static Perception:

    [DISTINCT IDEA] --- --- --- JUMP --- --- ---> [DISTINCT IDEA]


    Dynamic Perception:

    [GENERAL CAUSATION OR IDEA] ----------------DEVELOPMENT--------------> [GENERAL EFFECT OR IDEA]


    From these two perceptions, we can reason over the exact interplay between static and dynamic in temperament.

    • Ep - Fast Static. Perception is focused on the JUMP, feeling the utter quickness between ideas and things.

    • Ip - Slow Dynamic. Perception is focused on the DEVELOPMENT, feeling for the developing situation and maneuvering and adjusting accordingly.

    • Ej - Fast Dynamic. Perception is focused on the GENERAL CAUSES and GENERAL EFFECTS, feeling how to affect and what is directly being affected. [Focused on the beginning and ending of fluid situations]*

    • Ij - Slow Static. Perception is focused on the DISTINCT IDEAS or distinct perceptions, feeling the clarity and definition of them and attempting to stabilize them.


    Ep - JUMP
    Ij - DISTINCTION
    Ip - DEVELOPMENT
    Ej - AFFECT/EFFECT*

    REFERENCE FOR THOSE UNAWARE OF THE STATIC-DYNAMIC DICHOTOMY:
    Static Types: LSI, LII, ILE, SLE, ESI, EII, IEE, SEE
    Dynamic Types: LIE, LSE, ILI, SLI, SEI, IEI, EIE, ESE

  8. #8
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    I'm really liking these descriptions and they are useful for typing.
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  9. #9
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    This is a good overarching description of each temperament. Well actually I don't know much about the j temperaments but it's definitely useful for the p temperaments.


    Taking a concept to it's logical end is rarely logical or relevant to the subject at hand.
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  10. #10
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Awesome descriptions, @Alea_iacta_est. Really useful/helpful. Certainly sounds right for my type (LSE).
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!
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