User Tag List

Results 1 to 3 of 3

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    136

    Default Difference between J/P and j/p for introverts?

    Hi there,

    It seems that for introverts (but not for extroverts!) there is no simple translation from MBTI J/P to socionics j/p:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics (please have a look under header 16 types)

    Does anyone here have any clue as to why that is the case?

    There is also a fifth dimension (neuroticism, cf Big Five) which each system only partially covers/reaches. This is perhaps covered better in the enneagram level of health.
    That is, four dimensions are used, but the coordinate axes of MBTI and Socionics are not perfectly aligned, and they cannot of course cover all five dimensions of Big Five (and do not align with their axes either).

    For example, is it possible to say anything on which of the eight functions that are most difficult to translate between MBTI and Socionics, i.e. where is the correspondence weakest in the table below? (numbers in parenthesis correspond to typical table entries in Socionics)

    MBTI/Beebe Socionics
    1 Dominant/Hero Leading (1)
    2 Auxiliary/Good parent Creative (2)
    3 Tertiary/Puer-Puella Mobilizing (6)
    4 Inferior/Anima-Animus Suggestive (5)
    5 -/Opposing Observant (7)
    6 -/Senex-Witch Demonstrative (8)
    7 -/Trickster Vulnerable (4)
    8 -/Demon(Daimon) Role (3)

    Edit: The four dimensions I'm talking about above would perhaps correspond to
    Ji (some mix of Fi and Ti),
    Je (some mix of Fe and Te),
    Pi (some mix of Ni and Si) and
    Pe (some mix of Ne and Se).
    It's a mess.

    Edit: Another four-dimensional basis is of course
    Intuiting (Ni,Ne),
    Feeling (Fi,Fe)
    Thinking (Ti,Te)
    Sensing (Si,Se).
    Just to complicate things even further...
    Last edited by Geonat; 05-14-2014 at 10:33 AM. Reason: clarification (in best case)

  2. #2
    011235813
    Guest

    Default

    I just told you via pm that my brain is fried right now ... and it is. .. but I'll weigh in with preliminary thoughts on what little I understand of your question.

    I think, for introverts at least, both mbti and socionics get it wrong as far as judging and perceiving are concerned. Introverts just aren't as extreme in that regard as either system makes out. Dominant internal orderliness/rigidity (Ji) is hard to measure or even prove in strictly external terms, and external orderliness (Je) just isn't as immediately palpable in the aux/creative position as it is in the dominant ... and in any case, it's always in service of dominant Pi ... which isn't orderly in and of itself in the strictest sense.

    So the waters are already muddy. Reinforcing hard notions of order and chaos when the raw material itself is too messy to be sorted into neat categories is bound to result in confusion and failure, imo.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    I just told you via pm that my brain is fried right now ... and it is. .. but I'll weigh in with preliminary thoughts on what little I understand of your question.

    I think, for introverts at least, both mbti and socionics get it wrong as far as judging and perceiving are concerned. Introverts just aren't as extreme in that regard as either system makes out. Dominant internal orderliness/rigidity (Ji) is hard to measure or even prove in strictly external terms, and external orderliness (Je) just isn't as immediately palpable in the aux/creative position as it is in the dominant ... and in any case, it's always in service of dominant Pi ... which isn't orderly in and of itself in the strictest sense.

    So the waters are already muddy. Reinforcing hard notions of order and chaos when the raw material itself is too messy to be sorted into neat categories is bound to result in confusion and failure, imo.
    Thank you for your quick and insightful reply - I agree that there is so much noise to be handled here.
    I promise not to go bananas on this, but I thought that I could try to show in a simple way what I was talking about abstractly above regarding dimensions and bases:

    Let's say that you have handed out a questionnaire consisting of two questions where the respondents can rate their answer on some continuous scale from "not at all" (negative value) and "very much so" (positive value). The the result might look something like this:

    basis1.gif

    From the results (the dots, one for each person) one might, if the questions were close to something significant) discern a straight line (the dotted one).

    Then you should go back to the questions asked and see if you can reformulate them into two new but related questions. With some luck you will then end up with something like this:

    basis2.gif

    You have then found something very useful - answers to the new question #1 are pretty independent of question #2 . This could serve as a base for your theory (perhaps the question is very significant för the concept of Ji for example).

    Now this can be generalized to as many questions (dimensions) as you like, even if it is extremely difficult to visualize when there are more than three dimensions. Mathematically however it's a piece of cake (well...). It may then turn out that perhaps only five questions are really independent.

    Then you have five independent dimensions (agreeableness, openness, neuroticism, conscentiousness and extraversion for example) that will explain very much of how the system (people :-)) works.

    The problem is that MBTI and Socionics etc haven't asked the crucial questions so the axes aren't orthogonal to all straight-line trends. So the question is: What are the right questions to ask, and how many do you need to ask?

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Observational Differences Between the ENTJ and the INTJ
    By Ezra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 100
    Last Post: 06-15-2011, 07:02 PM
  2. [MBTItm] A Difference Between XNTJ types and XNTP types
    By Mondo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 12-15-2010, 07:49 PM
  3. Differences between ESTP/ISTP and ENTJ
    By BlueScreen in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 09-15-2009, 09:03 PM
  4. Difference Between the Congress and the Market?
    By nomadic in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 01:29 AM
  5. Difference Between the ESTJ and the ENTJ
    By Ezra in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-28-2007, 07:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO