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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    You realize that the comment about a link between ISTPs and distrusting Socionics was a joke right (I had thought you got that)? (though the figures were accurate)
    I was joking too. Though if you do think of some reason, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on it. That part was the only part that wasn't a joke


    So you only believe that a function has one particular use only? That Ni for instance, only predicts rather than doing that alongside hyper-analyzing events in the past, creating personal integration with conceptual ideas and theories, elucidating incredible amounts of information from scarce data, etc.?
    No, I'm not saying that a person who types as e.g. Ni-dom can only do one of these things. What I'm saying is that not everyone will necessarily be doing all that together. Unless it's proven in some way, I don't see how it's necessary.


    Also, fictional characters are not people and therefore break the functional tidings in the first place due to the fact that authors use various techniques like vivid imagery, character quirks that are not based out of personality but out of necessity, and nostalgic memories and flashbacks.
    It was just a fictional example, true. But it was reminiscent of some SJ types that have been discussed on this forum before.


    Furthermore, it would seem that you have completely rejected the idea that the two systems do not, in fact, occupy and define the same functions exactly, but instead occupy different perspectives, as if this idea is foreign to you, that the two systems must be defining precisely both the external and internal view of the functions at the same time, when that is evidently not the case.
    It's an interesting idea that one system is the external view and the other one is the internal view, but I did present what problems I see with that.


    You still clutch to the idea that Socionics and JCF must be seperate due to the fact that the functions are defined differently when in fact they are defined from different perspectives (reinforcing my belief that you simply took my oversimplification of the perspectives instead of actually reading the argument made in the Beta quadrant thread, which I recommend that you read
    Which argument do you mean exactly, can you link to it?


    though you have probably already made up your mind and will refute it anyways through some measure
    I dislike assumptions. No, I always say I can be convinced on whatever with strong enough arguments. If for some reason I still disagree after reading your argument, I will explain why that is and as a response I expect an attempt (from you or whoever I'm debating with) to refute what I said, of course in a logical way. It's possible to arrive to a point where the parties will understand each other's viewpoints fully; not necessarily agreeing, though it's also possible to arrive at agreement eventually.


    thus making it entirely futile to continue further (another one of Ji's magnificent qualities)).
    I think I've just provided a less black and white description of my Ji. The lines above.


    The Socionics Si is, on the contrary, viewed externally, how the Si user presents Si to others (refined by the creative function, of course), so yes, it is actually the external perspective.
    I got that opinion of yours the first time; but I can see it as an internal mindset too. Si isn't just a lazy ass then, it's a certain kind of attentiveness on whatever way the environment affects the Si user. And it also involves a certain way of responding to that. This is all standard socionics Si.


    I can see how @Zarathustra got pissed off at you now. This debate is practically futile and was unnecessary in the first place.
    I didn't see it as futile, going by the debate guidelines I explained above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    It also happens to be a description where JCF Se and Socionics Se collide, though I doubt you'll believe it.
    Again, I don't like such assumptions about what I will or will not think or believe etc.

    Yes, I know the two Se's collide there. No disagreement on that one.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Furthermore, it would seem that you have completely rejected the idea that (...)
    I could say the exact same about you.

    Thus no reason for you to get upset over that.

    And I already explained how it's the wrong perception anyway..

    But sure, agree to disagree Just don't feel it's fair that you'd get upset like that.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    I could say the exact same about you.
    Fine point. Though through my own interpretation of the system, I see the parts as reconcilable, whereas you see the parts as irreconcilable; therefore, one of us is off-base and the other is on-base, due to the fact that they can either be different systems since they touch on different perspectives, or different systems since they touch on different definitions entirely. Therefore, it stands to reason that the best solution is one that allows a third party untainted by any particular standing with either system yet still has enumerable amounts of knowledge concerning them, but where do we find an individual who is highly competent in JCF and probably Socionics yet seemingly critical and detached from both (at the present moment)? Oh, where art thou, @superunknown?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    But sure, agree to disagree Just don't feel it's fair that you'd get upset like that.
    Do not mistake my annoyed tone as one that is upset, I am in no ill-will against you, I simply find repetition distasteful, as I have typed virtually the same information several different times throughout the day to different people, and I dislike reexplaining things. Apologies for my bitter attitude. (Also its due to the fact that I've been trying to respond and watch Game of Thrones at the same time, but no matter)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Fine point. Though through my own interpretation of the system, I see the parts as reconcilable, whereas you see the parts as irreconcilable; therefore, one of us is off-base and the other is on-base, due to the fact that they can either be different systems since they touch on different perspectives, or different systems since they touch on different definitions entirely. Therefore, it stands to reason that the best solution is one that allows a third party untainted by any particular standing with either system yet still has enumerable amounts of knowledge concerning them, but where do we find an individual who is highly competent in JCF and probably Socionics yet seemingly critical and detached from both (at the present moment)? Oh, where art thou, @superunknown?
    Heh yeah.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Do not mistake my annoyed tone as one that is upset, I am in no ill-will against you, I simply find repetition distasteful, as I have typed virtually the same information several different times throughout the day to different people, and I dislike reexplaining things. Apologies for my bitter attitude. (Also its due to the fact that I've been trying to respond and watch Game of Thrones at the same time, but no matter)
    No worries. Lol, trying to multitask while watching a video, is that some INTJ superpower, just because I wouldn't want to try doing anything else while watching a good video Either before the video or after... no other way

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I can see how @Zarathustra got pissed off at you now. This debate is practically futile and was unnecessary in the first place.
    It's an important skill to learn who is worth discussing things with, and who is not.

    Who actually listens, and who does not.

    People give obvious tells, based on their responses.

    Once you see the tell - which I saw with this one - walk the other way, and never look back.

    You only have so much time in your life, and wasting it with these people is not a worthwhile use of it.

    "Wrestle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster."

  7. #37
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    This creates a problem for Type 9, as the opposing attitudes of Type 1 and Type 8 cause Type 9 to be ambivalent about what they should do. To provide a much better outlook and one of more expertise, would @Sanjuro (who I believe posted the initial explanation of why Type 9 is so ambivalent and withdrawn next to two action-oriented types) please care to explain it?
    The 9s are stuck between the desire to follow their own impulses and drives, like the 8; and the need to control these impulses, like the 1.

    They likewise are stuck between the doubt of the 6, with the desire to be part of the team; and the forge-ahead nature of the 3, with the desire to stand out.

    In the end, you've got a conflicted individual who doesn't know which way to turn, and so totally shuts down, takes all things into consideration without selecting any one thing as "most" important, and doesn't decide anything till s/he's good and ready.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    The 9s are stuck between the desire to follow their own impulses and drives, like the 8; and the need to control these impulses, like the 1.

    They likewise are stuck between the doubt of the 6, with the desire to be part of the team; and the forge-ahead nature of the 3, with the desire to stand out.

    In the end, you've got a conflicted individual who doesn't know which way to turn, and so totally shuts down, takes all things into consideration without selecting any one thing as "most" important, and doesn't decide anything till s/he's good and ready.
    Thank you.

    Therefore, it is not difficult to see that the ISFP/ISFj/ESI, who isn't an irrational Se dominant, as a type 9 would theoretically possess the "conquest" element of Se but not know where to purpose it due to the lack of identity/purpose characteristic of 9s, meaning that they would seem less like the over-dramatized "conquesting" nature of Se portrayed in Socionics and more oriented toward dominant-tertiary mechanics (possibly leading to a higher chance for being engaged in an Fi-Ni loop).

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Thank you.

    Therefore, it is not difficult to see that the ISFP/ISFj/ESI, who isn't an irrational Se dominant, as a type 9 would theoretically possess the "conquest" element of Se but not know where to purpose it due to the lack of identity/purpose characteristic of 9s, meaning that they would seem less like the over-dramatized "conquesting" nature of Se portrayed in Socionics and more oriented toward dominant-tertiary mechanics (possibly leading to a higher chance for being engaged in an Fi-Ni loop).
    I would say all of this is incredibly true for me.

  10. #40
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's an important skill to learn who is worth discussing things with, and who is not.

    Who actually listens, and who does not.

    People give obvious tells, based on their responses.

    Once you see the tell - which I saw with this one - walk the other way, and never look back.

    You only have so much time in your life, and wasting it with these people is not a worthwhile use of it.

    "Wrestle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster."
    It's good to know it's not only INFJs who doorslam others...

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