The PoLR Thread

[chubber]

Demonstrative Function 8 - Te

ExTp

 

[yeghor]

lol. This is Te. I'm relaying knowledge I have gathered and assimilated from learning the system. Socionics is a Ti-built system, it's supposed to do that. You are trying to type me with knowledge I am fucking handing you that I have interpreted and analyzed.

I have realized that it is consistent with in itself. The problem is you don't think it is yet are at a position where you do not possess the same level of knowledge on the subject.

Ni doesn't simply simplify, it explains the dynamics of things, how things fluidly work conceptually.

You are Ti Mobilizing. It is painfully obvious.

Almost as painful as your Te Vulnerable.

You've started to inflate your ego and devaluing me. And getting angry. Sounds familiar? :

These past few weeks, I've seen that I've gotten angrier much more often than usual, but the strange thing is that I noticed I enjoy being angry. When I'm angry, it feels like I am in complete control of a scenario; I begin counting myself as superior to the people around me, and it feeds this demented self-esteem high. It has gotten to the point where anger and power have become synonymous linked in my mind because when I'm angry, I feel powerful, formidable, vindictive (which is a good trait in my book), and unstoppable. It seems like I detach from the situation and view it from a high-up pedestal, as if I'm looking down on the people around me as inferior. Anger just feels like control and power now, and I don't let my anger show because I feel as if I don't need to, as if the anger is present around me in the form of social tension.

What type, tri-type, fix, or other Enneagram concept do you think this might be? I'm curious because I can't figure it out.

"how things fluidly work conceptually."

yeah but by simplifying those things into core concepts and analogies.

You are confusing Ti for Ni.

Anyway though, all these doesn't mean I know more about socionics than you. Just that you have mistyped yourself in MBTI but not in socionics.

However, would that affect your interpretation of the functions if you are actually INTP in MBTI? And how?

If you are correctly typed as INTp in socionics and feel that Model A makes sense, that would also require me to identify with INFj (which I do) and the function order make sense (but it doesn't).

I still don't know why MBTI function order makes sense.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

You've started to inflate your ego and devaluing me. And getting angry. Sounds familiar? :





yeah but by simplifying those things into core concepts and analogies.

You are confusing Ti for Ni.

Anyway though, all these doesn't mean I know more about socionics than you. Just that you have mistyped yourself in MBTI but not in socionics.

However, would that affect your interpretation of the functions if you are actually INTP in MBTI? And how?

If you are correctly typed as INTp in socionics and feel that Model A makes sense, that would also require me to identify with INFj (which I do) and the function order make sense (but they don't).

I still don't know why MBTI function order makes sense.

yeah but by simplifying those things into core concepts and analogies.

And there we have Ne. Focusing on the static meaning of concepts and relations of objects through analogical and metaphorical terminology.

Introverted Intuition explains the environment's current status and where the environment is going. It is a dynamic perception function, meaning that is weaves interpretations of things, usually based on static properties of things in the environment or accepted systems of knowledge and provided information.

You are an INFp in Soconics, an INFJ in MBTI (I accept that, as my previous analysis of you was wrong, you truly do demonstrate Te PoLR and Ti Mobilizing).

The problem with your little venture however, is that I know more about MBTI-JCF and Socionics than you. Why do you always assume I am angry? I'm a little annoyed, but that's about it.

EDIT: I probably know why, anyhow. Criticism of your logic is taken personally due to its relative sensitivity in your functional stacking; ergo, for hitting it and/or critiquing it, I must be angry.

 

[yeghor]

And there we have Ne. Focusing on the static meaning of concepts and relations of objects through analogical and metaphorical terminology.

Introverted Intuition explains the environment's current status and where the environment is going. It is a dynamic perception function, meaning that is weaves interpretations of things, usually based on static properties of things in the environment or accepted systems of knowledge and provided information.

You are an INFp in Soconics, an INFJ in MBTI (I accept that, as my previous analysis of you was wrong, you truly do demonstrate Te PoLR and Ti Mobilizing).

The problem with your little venture however, is that I know more about MBTI-JCF and Socionics than you. Why do you always assume I am angry? I'm a little annoyed, but that's about it.

EDIT: I probably know why, anyhow. Criticism of your logic is taken personally due to its relative sensitivity in your functional stacking; ergo, for hitting it and/or critiquing it, I am angry.

No because you start using deragatory remarks aimed at condescending the other, thereby pumping up your own ego to feel superior.

Why do I test as INFj then? Why don't I identify with what's written under Ni-lead description in INFp?

I think you and I are correctly typed under socionics and the type descriptions that you have little regard for are actually accurate yet there's something "off" about functions under each type.

I think it's the functions, despite bearing the same short form, that are not compatible with each other in MBTI and socionics. Ni socionics is not the same as Ni in MBTI.

Is socionics built on Jungian Cognitive functions? Who provides the best description for each function? Myers Briggs? Socionics and Myers Briggs seem to be using the same function coding yet function descriptions do not seem to match with each other.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

No because you start using deragatory remarks aimed at condescending the other, thereby pumping up your own ego to feel superior.

Why do I test as INFj then? Why don't I identify with what's written under Ni-lead description in INFp?

I think you and I are correctly typed under socionics and the type descriptions that you have little regard for are actually accurate yet there's something "off" about functions under each type.

I think it's the functions, despite bearing the same short form, that are not compatible with each other in MBTI and socionics. Ni socionics is not the same as Ni in MBTI.

Is socionics built on Jungian Cognitive functions? Who provides the best description for each function? Myers Briggs? Socionics and Myers Briggs seem to be using the same function coding yet function descriptions do not seem to match with each other.

The fact that you believe that I am being condescending to feel superior is saddening.

1. You test as INFj because there are no truly good Socionics tests. Do we use Humanmetrics to type MBTI here?

2. Type Descriptions of any kind are mostly baseless and cloud the systems. (which is why an understanding of the system is paramount) Wikisocion's type's function descriptions are subject to even more ridicule.

3. I am correctly typed under Socionics as well as the Jungian System. You are typed correctly under the Jungian System and are probably INFp in Socionics.

4. The functions are perfectly comparable, when you root out the misconceptions and mystical element of the Jungian System, which clouds the system in a subjective mess of useless interpretations (which is why Socionics has better function descriptions).

5. Yes, Socionics is built off of the work of Jung. Socionics provides the best descriptions for the functions in my honest opinion due to the fact that they are less open to interpretation and more mechanical. Ni in Socionics is the same as it is in JCF, the problem here-in-lies in the fact that JCF is an anarchic system with no true function definitions, thus leading to wildly inaccurate function descriptions.

I will try to sound less condescending from now on to avoid making that impression on you, as that is not what I was doing or what I was intending to do. (Fe PoLR problems)

It would do you good to also recognize the similarity in the Vulnerable Function and the Suggestive Function, as they both are technical inferiority complexes. The main difference is that you desperately want one while openly loathe the other.

EDIT: It is also interesting to warrant that Socionics's IM Elements were originally single-letter codes (T for Ni, for instance), and were adapted to match the MBTI counterpart across the Atlantic after the Cold War.

DOUBLE EDIT: Think of JCF and Socionics as like Windows and Mac OSX, that might help.
JCF has no actual true definitions much like how Windows has no actual true hardware.
Socionics has actual true definitions much like how Mac has specifically made hardware.

 

[á´…eparted]

Despite MBTI ENFJ and Socionics ISTj seemingly appearing to be an impossible combination, this is what I am, and I am fairly certain of it. It's kind of ironic. Part of the "impossibleness" is the assumption that MBTI functions and Socionics functions are the same. They are not, there are differences between them, and in my case in what makes me, me, these differences are quite significant.

In socionics, I am either ENFj, or ISTj. For two reasons. The first is that I fit solidly in the beta quadrant. There really isn't any question in this matter. At times gamma might ever so slightly fit, but that's not very good. The second, is that I am lead by a judging function. Again, this really isn't a question, as I require too much certainty and solidity to start off as a p. This leaves 2 viable options, ENFj, and ISTj. I identify with both of them, relatively equally. Neither fits perfectly, and there aspects of both that I just don't really fit. But over all, it fits. I don't really regard behaviroal manifestations and if I ignore that then it elimiates most of the "misses".

What settles it though, I is PoLR. I am so clearly Ne polar, and it is very very obvious. Further, Si PoLR does not fit. Maybe a little, but not really. I'm sort of anti-Ne in both a socionics and MBTI sense.

From that, it leads that ISTj is the most logical conclusion. That, and I identify with the socionics-Ti description.

 

[yeghor]

The fact that you believe that I am being condescending to feel superior is saddening.

Is it the other way around then?

2. Type Descriptions of any kind are mostly baseless and cloud the systems. (which is why an understanding of the system is paramount) Wikisocion's type's function descriptions are subject to even more ridicule.

Perhaps Jung also started with identifying common type patterns among his patients, forming rough type descriptions? Perhaps he then moved from there to build a mechanical model.

It would do you good to also recognize the similarity in the Vulnerable Function and the Suggestive Function, as they both are technical inferiority complexes. The main difference is that you desperately want one while openly loathe the other.

I desperately want Te and openly loathe Se. What does that make me in socionics? In MBTI? In Beebe's?
[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

Edit: I don't want Te from outside sources. I want it from within, I want to be competent in using Te.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Is it the other way around then?



Perhaps Jung also started with identifying common type patterns among his patients, forming rough type descriptions? Perhaps he then moved from there to build a mechanical model.



I desperately want Te and openly loathe Se. What does that make me in socionics? In MBTI? In Beebe's?

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

Edit: I don't want Te from outside sources. I want it from within, I want to be competent in using Te.

I actually don't believe that you truly do want Te (you may want to be good at it, but actually desire for what it offers?). You are definitively a Ti valuer. It is easy for one to mistake Te for Se, so it might do some good to look into the differences. The fact that you critiqued my perspective of what you perceived to be simple memorization of the model practically demonstrated that you prefer Ti over Te.

Keep in mind that the Super-Id block is more or less about how your sub-conscious influences you.

The one thing you have to realize about me is that I don't know how I come across to people well, and that is personified by Vulnerable Extroverted Feeling. I actually don't mean to be condescending, I am simply stating what my mind is thinking in the way that it thinks.

EDIT: The Suggestive function is something you want to get better at because you love its presence sub-consciously. The Vulnerable function is something you want to get better at because you don't want to be as bad as you are with it, so that others won't critique it.

Therefore, the INFp should subconsciously love being motivated to do things, actively doing things in the environment that are somewhat physical, and material things like money, power, and physical skill. The INFp should consciously loathe people who simply memorize facts, data, and external systems, as they don't build a personal understanding with the systems or relate personally to the systems.

 

[yeghor]

I actually don't believe that you truly do want Te (you may want to be good at it, but actually desire for what it offers?). You are definitively a Ti valuer. It is easy for one to mistake Te for Se, so it might do some good to look into the differences. The fact that you critiqued my perspective of what you perceived to be simple memorization of the model practically demonstrated that you prefer Ti over Te.

Keep in mind that the Super-Id block is more or less about how your sub-conscious influences you.

The one thing you have to realize about me is that I don't know how I come across to people well, and that is personified by Vulnerable Extroverted Feeling. I actually don't mean to be condescending, I am simply stating what my mind is thinking in the way that it thinks.

EDIT: The Suggestive function is something you want to get better at because you love its presence sub-consciously. The Vulnerable function is something you want to get better at because you don't want to be as bad as you are with it, so that others won't critique it.

Therefore, the INFp should subconsciously love being motivated to do things, actively doing things in the environment that are somewhat physical, and material things like money, power, and physical skill. The INFp should consciously loathe people who simply memorize facts, data, and external systems, as they don't build a personal understanding with the systems or relate personally to the systems.

I don't want to be fearful of articulating my thoughts as well as be better at expressing myself in a coherent and logical manner verbally. Most of the time when I do that IRL, people have this weird expression on their faces that says "what the fuck is he talking about?". So I want what Te offers. I also want the assertiveness that comes with Te. I don't want to be Se-assertive (i.e. physically assertive) but want to have the commanding presence of Te.

And I am sure my vulnerable function is Se (which I think is my inferior but your model says it's the suggestive that's the inferior).

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I don't want to be fearful of articulating my thoughts as well as be better at expressing myself in a coherent and logical manner verbally. Most of the time when I do that IRL, people have this weird expression on their faces that says "what the fuck is he talking about?". So I want what Te offers. I also want the assertiveness that comes with Te. I don't want to be Se-assertive (i.e. physically assertive) but want to have the commanding presence of Te.

And I am sure my vulnerable function is Se (which I think is my inferior but your model says it's the suggestive that's the inferior).

INxp's don't really want to be physically assertive, they'd rather have other people be assertive for them.

Do you unconsciously desire Te, however*? Logical order and efficient systems? Or is that something that is arisen from your own thinking? Often people miss the desires of the Suggestive function because it is buried beneath the computation of the conscious mind, what lies in the abyss of the personality.

*I hope my paranoid cynicism is incorrect that you are merely claiming inferior Te so that you can somehow miraculously still claim that you are an INFj, for that would be saddening. Truly, however, what is the precise reason causing you to believe you are an EII?

 

[yeghor]

INxp's don't really want to be physically assertive, they'd rather have other people be assertive for them.

Do you unconsciously desire Te, however*? Logical order and efficient systems? Or is that something that is arisen from your own thinking? Often people miss the desires of the Suggestive function because it is buried beneath the computation of the conscious mind, what lies in the abyss of the personality.

*I hope my paranoid cynicism is incorrect that you are merely claiming inferior Te so that you can somehow miraculously still claim that you are an INFj, for that would be saddening. Truly, however, what is the precise reason causing you to believe you are an EII?

No I checked it after I'd written it down and saw that it fits with INFj.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

No I checked it after I'd written it down and saw that it fits INFj. If you check my earlier post, I guessed Ti for my Suggestive function but it fits more with Te based on your last description.

Why?

Also, What is your own basis for the Vulnerable Function being the Inferior Function? Please do detail.

 

[yeghor]

Why?

Also, What is your own basis for the Vulnerable Function being the Inferior Function? Please do detail.

Model A say it's the most irritating function and the one that I am most irritated with is Se. Assuming that my MBTI type is correct, Se corresponds to my inferior function. That's why.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Model A say it's the most irritating function and the one that I am most irritated with is Se. Assuming that my MBTI type is correct, Se corresponds to my inferior function. That's why.

That's a faulty method of reasoning, as it assumes that you are infallible.

Did you know that the Vulnerable function is only irritating when it is actually noticed, and that most of the time you completely ignore information to it unless someone brings it up?

Why are you irritated with Se?

 

[yeghor]

That's a faulty method of reasoning, as it assumes that you are infallible.

Did you know that the Vulnerable function is only irritating when it is actually noticed, and that most of the time you completely ignore information to it unless someone brings it up?

Why are you irritated with Se?

Cause I cannot counter it and that makes me fearful. Aggressive body language, high speed etc. I do notice it though quite easily but just am unable to handle it.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Cause I cannot counter it and that makes me fearful. Aggressive body language, high speed etc. I do notice it though quite easily but just am unable to handle it.

Yet you don't wish you could counter it? Or you don't wish that someone else would step-up for you?

That isn't that many examples, everyone is afraid of people being overly aggressive and even high-speed situations where quick reflexes and physical wits are required (except for Se Egos).

How does your fear of inferior Se manifest itself?

 

[yeghor]

Yet you don't wish you could counter it? Or you don't wish that someone else would step-up for you?

That isn't that many examples, everyone is afraid of people being overly aggressive and even high-speed situations where quick reflexes and physical wits are required (except for Se Egos).

How does your fear of inferior Se manifest itself?

In being bullied?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

In being bullied?

You said you checked the Te suggestive in an above post, was it this?

...should consciously loathe people who simply memorize facts, data, and external systems, as they don't build a personal understanding with the systems or relate personally to the systems.

Everyone is afraid of and loathes being bullied, but what makes you a Vulnerable Se?

Furthermore, based on objective reasoning outside of the self, why do you believe the Vulnerable function is the Inferior Function?

 

[yeghor]

You said you checked the Te suggestive in an above post, was it this?



Everyone is afraid of and loathes being bullied, but what makes you a Vulnerable Se?

Furthermore, based on objective reasoning outside of the self, why do you believe the Vulnerable function is the Inferior Function?

In my earlier response to your polr update I identified Ti as my Suggedtive and then reidentifed it as Te upon another short description of it by you.

what are you asking exactly?

I can register physical real time information but cannot act on it. this manifests itself as inability to counter it.

It overloads and paralyzes me. I don'yçt know what you are expecting to hear.

I am not physically aggressive and impulsive.

 

[yeghor]

You said you checked the Te suggestive in an above post, was it this?



Everyone is afraid of and loathes being bullied, but what makes you a Vulnerable Se?

Furthermore, based on objective reasoning outside of the self, why do you believe the Vulnerable function is the Inferior Function?

I mean physical bullying not verbal if that's what you ate asking.