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Thread: The PoLR Thread

  1. #71
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Hahaha. Well a simple word: reductionism. I break stuff down into its elements, build up everything from the bottom and that's how I decide what to think about a category's "goodness"/"badness". Categories, concepts, everything, how to handle them, how to fit them into a system. According to this way of analysis, I didn't find the socionics and MBTI functions to be similar enough. They aren't oranges and tangerines, though they aren't oranges and apples either.




    Now why the hell not?




    Lol.




    I get that but everything you described about Fe PoLR above isn't really much emphasizing Fi over Fe. It just sounded like a weak F function to me. Why is it Fe specifically in your opinion?

    And, I assume ILI would still care about deciding these stances while ILE would have a harder time paying attention to that.




    I dunno this isn't telling me enough specifics on whether you value Fi over Fe or not. So how do you relate to Fi, do you care about determining your stances towards others much? Btw I'm not questioning your type, just curious to understand better.
    You're fine, I do care about determining my stance towards others, and I always seem to have an unconscious association to people as to whether or not I am going to like them or I am going to hate them, and with the surfacing of information, they adopt specific labels: Ally, Undetermined, and Enemy.

    As for Fe vs Fi, the easiest difference between the two in the PoLR function would be the ability to elicit external emotional responses to things. ILEs are able to do this better than ILIs and can unconsciously extrovert their emotions to the outside world with *some* ease, while the ILI has much greater difficulty due to the fact that extroverting emotions feels strange, pointless, and detrimental due to the fact that ILI's are afraid that they will draw criticism for not being able to share in the emotional atmosphere as adequately enough, ILE's do not typically have this problem, as they can indulge in the emotional atmosphere and "have a good time" with others without as much fear of criticism.

    If you were to throw an ILI and an ILE into an acting club where the job was to elicit an emotional response in the crowd by expressing some ridiculous emotion, the ILE would be hesitant, but the ILE would probably A. Do a better job at it than the ILI, and B. Do it anyways, while the ILI would simply say "fuck it" and walk out. Also, getting an ILE to talk about their feelings is comparatively easier than getting an ILI to talk about their feelings at all. There was an old thing someone said on 16types that was like "the easiest way to break an ILI is to announce their feelings for someone publicly, and they'll immediately withdraw".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    You're fine, I do care about determining my stance towards others, and I always seem to have an unconscious association to people as to whether or not I am going to like them or I am going to hate them, and with the surfacing of information, they adopt specific labels: Ally, Undetermined, and Enemy.
    Okay, okay, you're Fi. :P

    This way of thinking is extremely foreign to me.


    As for Fe vs Fi, the easiest difference between the two in the PoLR function would be the ability to elicit external emotional responses to things. ILEs are able to do this better than ILIs and can unconsciously extrovert their emotions to the outside world with *some* ease, while the ILI has much greater difficulty due to the fact that extroverting emotions feels strange, pointless, and detrimental due to the fact that ILI's are afraid that they will draw criticism for not being able to share in the emotional atmosphere as adequately enough, ILE's do not typically have this problem, as they can indulge in the emotional atmosphere and "have a good time" with others without as much fear of criticism.
    How on earth can extraverting emotions be an unconscious thing? Are e.g. ILE's not aware of the fact that they're smiling or acting in an emotional way or what? I just don't understand how this term is being used here.

    My own stance towards Fe is somewhere between these two examples; I don't think I'm Fe PoLR of course, but I do want to make sure I won't be criticized about Fe so I can be pretty careful about use of Fe in front of others. I can be pretty okay with a good emotional atmosphere but it's only really good if I don't try to force myself to actively participate. It'll either come spontaneously or it won't, in which case I'll stay somewhat reserved, though not entirely. The latter case is more often, and it doesn't matter if it's a stranger or a close friend. It's like I need a lot of Fe input first before I'll get drawn in that much. That's partly because I just... don't get activated that easily. And partly because as I said I can be pretty sensitive to the idea of being perceived as using Fe in an inadept way. I still don't think this is Fe PoLR because as I said I'm okay with the Fe atmosphere stuff otherwise. (I'm talking about IRL btw, not online. Smilies are easy to write.)

  3. #73
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Okay, okay, you're Fi. :P

    This way of thinking is extremely foreign to me.




    How on earth can extraverting emotions be an unconscious thing? Are e.g. ILE's not aware of the fact that they're smiling or acting in an emotional way or what? I just don't understand how this term is being used here.

    My own stance towards Fe is somewhere between these two examples; I don't think I'm Fe PoLR of course, but I do want to make sure I won't be criticized about Fe so I can be pretty careful about use of Fe in front of others. I can be pretty okay with a good emotional atmosphere but it's only really good if I don't try to force myself to actively participate. It'll either come spontaneously or it won't, in which case I'll stay somewhat reserved, though not entirely. The latter case is more often, and it doesn't matter if it's a stranger or a close friend. It's like I need a lot of Fe input first before I'll get drawn in that much. I still don't think this is Fe PoLR because as I said I'm okay with the Fe atmosphere stuff otherwise.
    Not consciously aware, their primary focus is on the conscious lead and creative function, meaning that their actual attention is drawn away from their Super-Id functions, allowing the extroverted function to show through more.

    Read my other example, and if that doesn't do it for you, I'll elucidate my time last night being the only Gamma at an Alpha-Beta gathering (that should help elucidating the crippled Fe, as well as help understand ISTj - INTp relations since an ISTj was in charge of the gathering.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    If you were to throw an ILI and an ILE into an acting club where the job was to elicit an emotional response in the crowd by expressing some ridiculous emotion, the ILE would be hesitant, but the ILE would probably A. Do a better job at it than the ILI, and B. Do it anyways, while the ILI would simply say "fuck it" and walk out. Also, getting an ILE to talk about their feelings is comparatively easier than getting an ILI to talk about their feelings at all. There was an old thing someone said on 16types that was like "the easiest way to break an ILI is to announce their feelings for someone publicly, and they'll immediately withdraw".
    Oh you added this later. :P

    Alright so if it's actually my JOB, I would be okay with doing it if practicing it first. I would be otherwise not comfortable with doing this. This is seriously the sort of thing that I'm careful about otherwise. I remember doing this sort of stuff spontaneously a long time ago and people even appreciated it, they laughed and all, but then I somehow got it into my head that I need to make sure I don't look too ridiculous.

    That ILI quote from the 16types lol uh. I doubt this is specific to Fe PoLR. Are you sure it's easier to get a Fi PoLR talking about their feelings? That's not my impression so far reading up on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Not consciously aware, their primary focus is on the conscious lead and creative function, meaning that their actual attention is drawn away from their Super-Id functions, allowing the extroverted function to show through more.
    Fe expression to me is pretty conscious, honestly. So this makes no sense, I'm sorry. Can you please explain this a bit more?


    Read my other example, and if that doesn't do it for you, I'll elucidate my time last night being the only Gamma at an Alpha-Beta gathering.
    Doesn't do what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Oh you added this later. :P

    Alright so if it's actually my JOB, I would be okay with doing it if practicing it first. I would be otherwise not comfortable with doing this. This is seriously the sort of thing that I'm careful about otherwise. I remember doing this sort of stuff spontaneously a long time ago and people even appreciated it, they laughed and all, but then I somehow got it into my head that I need to make sure I don't look too ridiculous.

    That ILI quote from the 16types lol uh. I doubt this is specific to Fe PoLR. Are you sure it's easier to get a Fi PoLR talking about their feelings? That's not my impression so far reading up on it.
    While it might not be specific to Fe PoLR, it "stings" (term used for the hitting of Super-Ego or weak functions) the most out of the others.

    Yes. It is easier to get an Fi PoLR to talk about their feelings, do not mistake Fi for being the only function that is consistent with feelings, discarding Fe as a facade to the outside world. Fe is feelings as well. The fact that the extroversion of the feeling function is valued states that they will be more inclined to talk about their feelings because that is their unconscious valued function, to express. BUT REMEMBER that Fi PoLR is NOT responsible for this, this is the Hidden Agenda's doing.

    The Hidden Agenda itself can deceive the Ego that it is a strong function (remember that in MBTI JCF, the HA is technically the Tertiary), and can cause some individuals to "over-do" that function when in contact with others. Hidden Agenda Fe, for instance would lead an ExTp to be overly-dramatic in an excessive way that is seen almost as embarrassing to Fe Lead and Creative types, but the user of the HA Fe believes that they are doing it confidently and well. This can, infamously, lead to mistypings for the HA as the lead function.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Fe expression to me is pretty conscious, honestly. So this makes no sense, I'm sorry. Can you please explain this a bit more?
    If we assume that you are an ISTj, Fe is your DS function and should only be used exceedingly sparingly, due to the fact that you are searching for a dual to aid the function which seems fairly weak. You could be confusing Fe for Fi in the conscious block due to the fact that Fi has been tied to "politeness" and "manners", but other than that I have no idea.

    This is all I can really put forward:

    Fe as Vulnerable Function

    The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.

    Fi as Vulnerable Function

    The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships; he is either overly suspicious or overly assuming of his relations with others when they are not clearly defined. More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively. Expressions of deep personal sentiments are awkward for the individual, whether coming from another or himself. He does not see it as his "right" to place the burden of his true emotions on another, both because he knows how uncomfortable those of others make him (even when they are positive and genuine), and because of his own awkwardness in expressing them.

    Fe as Suggestive Function (DS)

    The individual often becomes engrossed in serious work, which leads him to neglect his complementary need for fun and emotional release. He also feels vulnerable expressing himself spontaneously in public, which allows bad emotions and stress to build up, leading to depression or sudden hostility. He enjoys being around people who make him feel comfortable expressing himself, and who can make every day new and exciting. Although he may present a hard exterior in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial and warm.

    - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i....QbnuOYgm.dpuf

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    As this thread is the PoLR thread, I'll sum up my possible PoLR's to give datapoints & please help choose

    Fi: (I'll repeat some of my posts and add some extras.)

    I usually don't feel anything in a personal way. It's not that I don't know what I feel. Simply there is nothing to know about. No inner feelings. And I'm not interested either in that stuff. When I do feel some emotion, I never try to give it a name or figure out what it means, I just sort of act it out, or express it in whatever other way I can, if nothing else, then by writing. I actually pretty much *have to* do this, I don't have good control over expression of strong emotions. (I like strong emotions anyway, I just rarely get them with the exception of anger.)

    As for not feeling anything where I would be expected to, e.g. at most people's death, or anything else really; I don't give a fuck about those societal expectations. I never wondered if this made me a "monster". I'm actually quite comfortable being this way. Anyone who thinks it's bad can just fuck off. I'm rather fine with admitting to myself that I don't feel anything. Thus, I exactly know what I feel: nothing.

    No, I don't say the above to others in such situations, I know it would be offensive. I just manage by simply keeping a blank face and not doing anything or leaving entirely, or perhaps, at best, giving a faint expression of what's expected, some facial expression, e.g. a quick superficial smile. Even then I still don't say anything about personal/inner feelings and I don't express them by action either. Behaving pretty reserved really. It did happen before that I offended others by this kind of behaviour - if I completely didn't attempt to align with expectations -, yes but I didn't give a shit.

    When I'm just asked about how I feel about something, that's simple too, I'll just say "dunno" or shrug or smile or something like that. I don't bother to put in the effort because I know there's nothing. Even if sometimes there happened to be something that I "feel" about whatever thing, it would be something pretty confusing, not an actual emotion either, really just something confusing and so I just ignore it.

    From all the above, it follows that I have trouble feeling much for most relationships. I'm mostly neutral, no like, no dislike. No list of enemies that I'd feel anything about. I behave in the same way with everyone by default. I also can't judge my relationships consistently, without external emotional expression, I usually get on the negative side of things and too quickly assume that they don't like me. The only way to determine other people's stance is by directly asking about it and I will simply do this if I want to know. It also means I don't naturally pay attention to preserving relationships. Uh, okay, all that textbook Fi PoLR stuff about how I just focus on the activities, the fun, etc, not the relationship itself.

    Really, I'm tired of listing all the textbook Fi PoLR stuff.


    Ne: I relate to senza tema's Ne PoLR a lot. Except it's not about ethics, of course. I don't like too much speculation, too many options, too much randomness and scatteredness, brainstorming, blahblahblah, I get overloaded fast with that stuff. If I tried to analyse it, my head would soon explode. Best to just ignore it. My focus is very deep and intense instead of being scattered going all over the place with ideas anyway.

    I'm rather good at quickly judging what ideas are realistic and which ones are not and the ones that aren't, I couldn't care less about. I'm much more glad to analyse trends instead of unrealistic ideas. I will care about only the most likely outcome and ignore the unlikely ones. So, when it's about options on what could possibly be done, I don't like that either, I prefer picking one way and take direct action.

    I hate the idea of combining various bullshit together just to see what happens. I can only logically analyse stuff and determine if there's a connection that way. I have very strict expectations about logical correctness of connections. More than that, I have expectations that it be connected to tangible reality. Not totally theoretical stuff.

    So, yeah, Ne is something that I'm definitely not interested in, and I don't really feel sensitive to criticism about it. I can sometimes think it's great though when ILE's and LII's seem to pick up entire theories in a way that I just don't do. It's not to do with intelligence/IQ whatsoever, I'm perfectly capable of understanding the same stuff, but I process it very differently.

    Again, tired of listing all the textbook Ne PoLR stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    While it might not be specific to Fe PoLR, it "stings" (term used for the hitting of Super-Ego or weak functions) the most out of the others.
    OK, fine, I have no idea how much it stings for you to try and behave like a clown. :P


    Yes. It is easier to get an Fi PoLR to talk about their feelings, do not mistake Fi for being the only function that is consistent with feelings, discarding Fe as a facade to the outside world. Fe is feelings as well. The fact that the extroversion of the feeling function is valued states that they will be more inclined to talk about their feelings because that is their unconscious valued function, to express. BUT REMEMBER that Fi PoLR is NOT responsible for this, this is the Hidden Agenda's doing.
    Well what I can talk about definitely isn't feelings in a serious manner and I thought you meant that. What I can do is express emotions in a more intense way, by facial expressions, various activites, and sure, words too, but no analytical side to that at all, it's just the emotion itself. This is Fe as far as I understand. ILI's would be able to talk about whatever sentiments more easily than Fi PoLR's as far as I understand. It's just not expressed like Fe is. Right?


    The Hidden Agenda itself can deceive the Ego that it is a strong function (remember that in MBTI JCF, the HA is technically the Tertiary), and can cause some individuals to "over-do" that function when in contact with others. Hidden Agenda Fe, for instance would lead an ExTp to be overly-dramatic in an excessive way that is seen almost as embarrassing to Fe Lead and Creative types, but the user of the HA Fe believes that they are doing it confidently and well. This can, infamously, lead to mistypings for the HA as the lead function.
    I can be overly dramatic but it's rare and I don't do it to perform. I do it to release emotions. Though, sometimes it's almost like a theatrical performance, true, still I say it's more spontaneous than a performance. I definitely am conscious of doing so. I'm pretty sure it's not as refined as it would be for Fe egos however. But that's not the same as being unaware of "doing" Fe. So I still don't understand the idea about superid being unconscious.

    Oh and while we're at it, I'm the same way with some Ni stuff. Some of it can get conscious. I rather enjoy that too, when it's conscious.

    So please explain why I'm not experiencing the superid functions in the way the theory predicts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    If we assume that you are an ISTj, Fe is your DS function and should only be used exceedingly sparingly, due to the fact that you are searching for a dual to aid the function which seems fairly weak. You could be confusing Fe for Fi in the conscious block due to the fact that Fi has been tied to "politeness" and "manners", but other than that I have no idea.

    This is all I can really put forward:
    Well online I don't use it "exceedingly sparingly". IRL yes I'm like that, I use Fe a lot less. But it's conscious. When I said Fe is conscious for me, I wasn't talking about politeness and manners. I have no manners almost. Though yes, concentration on politeness is conscious too, just more "painful". It feels like superego, definitely. I'm much better off if I don't give a shit, honestly...

  10. #80
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Hahaha. Well a simple word: reductionism. I break stuff down into its elements, build up everything from the bottom and that's how I decide what to think about a category's "goodness"/"badness". Categories, concepts, everything, how to handle them, how to fit them into a system. According to this analysis, I didn't find the socionics and MBTI functions to be similar enough. They aren't oranges and tangerines, though they aren't oranges and apples either.
    Thanks... I just glanced over them and found them to be similar enough...

    Which one do sound more like you infinity-?

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/istp.htm

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/istj.htm


    And which one for you @Alea_iacta_est ?

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/intj.htm

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/intp.htm

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