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Thread: The PoLR Thread

  1. #31
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The basis of that is the fact that Lead Thinkers, for example, are adept at using both introverted thinking and extroverted thinking, but find one more preferable, thus casting the opposing attitude to the preferred attitude down to the ignoring function, or the "I know I can do that easily but I don't really want to, it's boring and tedious". Meanwhile, the Super-Ego functions are the weakest due to the fact that they are a constant source of pain to the Ego when they are critiqued by others, and the fact that they are virtually impossible to improve without some shortcomings. The Super-Id functions, however, are unconscious and therefore somewhat easier to use, which sometimes even creates the common mistype involving the Hidden Agenda function, due to the fact that it can "inflate", making the user think that this function is their lead function and that the user is masterful at it when really everyone else who sees the individual using that function sees it as being "over-the-top" or laughably embarrassing for the user.

    Assuming that the function order must trickle down with strength to weakness is faulty. The functions are still based off of Jung's psychological types, so the function order is just changed to better divide the conscious functions from the unconscious functions.

    INFJ: Ni - Fe - Ti - Se - Ne - Fi - Te - Si

    INFp: Ni - Fe - Si - Te - Se - Ti - Ne - Fi
    I don't berate myself over my super-ego functions though... i.e. I am fine with my Si and my Te...though I feel a need to write down whatever is in my mind cause I can forget it easily if I don't...where in MBTI order as you can see my Si is the "weakest"? but I don't sweat over it or feel bad when people call me absent-minded... And I have been improving my Te...?

    And I am aware that my Se (i.e. super-id) sucks...though I tend to believe I've developed my other super-id function Ti...though I have to concentrate hard on it to make it work... which sometimes makes my head hurt, like in one of my earlier posts herein...I need to force "it" to work...

    So how do all these play into the system?

  2. #32
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est,

    Another interesting thing is that I relate more to this description than this...

    Does that mean my socionics type is actually INFj (EII)?

    This makes more sense cause in the socionics INFj type the super-ego block (that we feel inferior and shameful when criticized about according to the theory in OP) is made up of Ti and Se (the same as MBTI)... So that would make my PoLR = Se...?

    ...which would bring me full circle to my #2 post...

  3. #33
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Parts of EII (INFj) description that I relate are marked in Bold as follows:

    Introverted Ethics (Fi)

    Extroverted Intuition (Ne)

    Introverted Logic (Ti,)

    Extroverted Sensing (Se)

    Extroverted Logic (Te)

    Introverted Sensing (Si)

    Extroverted Ethics (Fe)

    Introverted Intuition (Ni)


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The functions descriptions here sound similar to the MBTI descriptions?
    Nope... You really think Se and Si are that similar? Se is more like a mix of MBTI Se and Te. Si is mix of MBTI Se and something else. Or, Ni for example has elements of MBTI Si. Fe also. I could go on :P (Seriously, that MBTI Si thing is just really weird anyway)


    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    From a source I do not recall but could find upon request
    Yeah please find it


    Super-Ego supposedly works better with irrational types than with rational types. Also, if we consider that the conflictor to a type is that type's virtual inverse while the super-ego type keeps the same temperament (Ep, Ip, Ij, Ej), then it seems that the conflictor would more actively piss us off more than the Super-Ego.
    I don't know. I'm sure someone who holds the view that the conflictor is just a long distance psychologically, would find something to argue for that view just like you did now with the opposite view :P As I said I don't remember where I read it, sorry.


    Another thing is that while the super-ego is often extremely loathed, we tend to value people who can use those functions better (Ego block), and this often creates the idea in our mind that the 2 functions in our super-ego block are our dual-seeking functions, leading intertype relations like Super-Ego to actually create a sort of attraction to the "mysterious idealistic" people who embody our weaknesses (mysteriously idealistic probably due to the keeping of the same temperament).
    Again, where was this described, that we value people who use our superego functions better? I have never seen this. I also didn't see anything about such attraction to superego types in place of the dual types.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I don't recall the exact wording used in the interactions you're referring to, and I'll make reservations for the possibility that I took it more personally than was intended. However, I believe that it's bad form to get in the habit of thinking of anyone as literally hopeless. Thoughts turn into action and pretty soon you wind up, at worst, damaging people, and at best, making them resent you. I have such an averse reaction to it because to make such a judgment without the concrete evidence gained from further investigation raises red flags about a person's own perceived shortcomings, so the end result looks like you're cursing someone in the most baseless, bitter way possible.
    That all sounds nice but what about a true proven psychopath for example. I do agree about the part though that it's good to hold off judgment until there's concrete evidence.


    Se PoLR

    I definitely harbor insecurities with my Se. The impending feeling that I'm not measuring up to my potential, or that I can't grasp opportunities, frequently burdens my mind. I envy successful risk-takers. When I attempt to take initiative, it leaves me feeling drained and hollow, even though not everyone can see it. When the outcome leaves something to be desired, gambling like this is reduced to a complete waste until I collect myself and glean whatever wisdom of hindsight I can from my failures. I probably project onto everyone a slight feeling that they expect me to aim higher or to serve them. When I interact with those who don't hold those expectations, I can become slightly disoriented, which makes the process of making myself appealing almost invariably abysmal.
    I didn't understand your last two sentences; what's the problem with it if someone doesn't hold those expectations about you?


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Parts of EII (INFj) description that I relate are marked in Bold as follows:
    Compare Te PoLR and Se PoLR yet?

    Make a thread on your type, IEI vs EII, I'm interested.

  5. #35
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Nope... You really think Se and Si are that similar? Se is more like a mix of MBTI Se and Te. Si is mix of MBTI Se and something else. Or, Ni for example has elements of MBTI Si. Fe also. I could go on :P (Seriously, that MBTI Si thing is just really weird anyway
    They still sound similar to me... I don't see a "global" difference... But if what you are saying is true, it would be very difficult to make a direct correlation and comparison between socionics and MBTI...

    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Compare Te PoLR and Se PoLR yet?

    Make a thread on your type, IEI vs EII, I'm interested.
    IEI description sounds like that of an aristocrat or something..

    You can check my thoughts about myself here...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    They still sound similar to me... I don't see a "global" difference... But if what you are saying is true, it would be very difficult to make a direct correlation and comparison between socionics and MBTI...
    What would be a global difference for you, then?

    Yes it's difficult to make direct correlations because of that, though logical comparison is still possible in some ways.


    IEI description sounds like that of an aristocrat or something..

    You can check my thoughts about myself here...
    EII is aristocrat dichotomy too in socionics

    What did you personally mean by that though?

    That thread you linked to is pretty long... I think if you're interested in figuring out this IEI vs EII issue for you, you should really make a socionics typing thread in the typing forum section. I'm sure people will try to help.

  7. #37
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    That all sounds nice but what about a true proven psychopath for example. I do agree about the part though that it's good to hold off judgment until there's concrete evidence.
    I think you're missing the context of the dialogue between senza and I, so I'm going to have to shift it in order to accommodate you. From a broader and more practical POV, we're discussing management of expectations. If you understand the defining features of an individual, then you know where they could go and what they have to offer. If you don't think they have anything to offer, then your vision is limited only to a select number of venues; perhaps in the case of a psychopath, you would be too wary of them to allow them a venue, even though they could be a constructive presence given the correct incentives and circumstances. Indeed, plenty of CEOs and politicians excel with psychopathic traits and wind up benefiting someone somewhere. But if you think that I, personally, would consciously deal with a psychopath up close and personal, then you are wrong. And frankly, I could care less about them. The individuals senza and I were discussing however many months ago could have used medication and supportive environments to supplement their growth. To say that they were hopeless would be tantamount to saying that they lacked the choice to be medicated.




    I didn't understand your last two sentences; what's the problem with it if someone doesn't hold those expectations about you?



    It's not so much a problem with it, so much as the disorientation is an unfortunate consequence of suffering from a blindspot.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I think you're missing the context of the dialogue between senza and I, so I'm going to have to shift it in order to accommodate you. From a broader and more practical POV, we're discussing management of expectations. If you understand the defining features of an individual, then you know where they could go and what they have to offer. If you don't think they have anything to offer, then your vision is limited only to a select number of venues; perhaps in the case of a psychopath, you would be too wary of them to allow them a venue, even though they could be a constructive presence given the correct incentives and circumstances. Indeed, plenty of CEOs and politicians excel with psychopathic traits and wind up benefiting someone somewhere. But if you think that I, personally, would consciously deal with a psychopath up close and personal, then you are wrong. And frankly, I could care less about them. The individuals senza and I were discussing however many months ago could have used medication and supportive environments to supplement their growth. To say that they were hopeless would be tantamount to saying that they lacked the choice to be medicated.
    Okay, that makes perfect sense.


    It's not so much a problem with it, so much as the disorientation is an unfortunate consequence of suffering from a blindspot.
    OK, I may have misread or missing the context again but I don't really understand why it disorients you when someone doesn't expect you to be/do certain things. And what did you mean by making yourself appealing, as related to this issue?

  9. #39
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post

    OK, I may have misread or missing the context again but I don't really understand why it disorients you when someone doesn't expect you to be/do certain things. And what did you mean by making yourself appealing, as related to this issue?
    The last time this happened to me was at a job interview. They had some vacant positions, but they were looking for the right person. In situations like that, you have to sell yourself, sometimes with the knowledge that even though you could perform, you're only one out of a number of available options. So you're not necessarily needed. If my goals are meant to be entirely self-serving, then things sort of fall into disarray in my mind. Ends aren't met. Does that clarify things?

  10. #40
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    It's funny because @Vetani is Fi polr while I'm Ti polr (ExTp vs ExFp) and often, a lot of what is considered simple to one of us has to be thoroughly explained to the other. But it definitely provides a sense of grasping that vulnerable function from being with someone that values it. I can't think of anything specific, so maybe he can chime in.
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