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Thread: The PoLR Thread

  1. #191
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    your correlations for arcehtypes for instance makes SLI ISTp fit with MBTI ISTJ. Yet, function descriptions under ISTp is defining MBTI ISTP rather than ISTJ.

    Does what I put forward as INFJ archetype functions fit with your mapping of archetypes for IEI INFp?

    The thing is though they may seem to fit funcriın order-wise, they don't fit description-wise.

    So we have two packaged products and the labels on each package talk about the same product and list the same ingredients yet, when we open both packages and ask others describe how they see/sense the product, they start describing two different products. So one of the prıducts is ckearly mispacked and mislabeled.

    I believe it's the socionics one. I am trying to understand why.
    The function descriptions do not define the MBTI ISTP, they define the Socionics ISTp, as it is a description of the Socionics ISTp.

    Yes, the INFJ archetype functions fit the mapping of archetypes for the IEI INFp.

    One is BIC Pen, the other is a Papermate Pen. They look different on the outside, but are used for the same purpose, do the same things, and have similar properties.

  2. #192
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The function descriptions do not define the MBTI ISTP, they define the Socionics ISTp, as it is a description of the Socionics ISTp.

    Yes, the INFJ archetype functions fit the mapping of archetypes for the IEI INFp.

    One is BIC Pen, the other is a Papermate Pen. They look different on the outside, but are used for the same purpose, do the same things, and have similar properties.
    OK here's the function descriptions on Socionics Information Elements site. I've bolded and underlined parts that I think doesn't fit with the MBTI version of the respective function:

    Information Elements

    The information elements (also IM elements, elements of information metabolism, or, confusingly, "functions") are eight mental categories that play a key role in interpersonal interaction. They are denoted using the same symbols and names as the information aspects. The difference between them is that information elements are subjective properties of the psyche, whereas information aspects are objective properties of reality independent from psyche.

    The 8 Information Elements:

    Introverted Logic (Ti)
    Extroverted Intuition (Ne)
    Introverted Ethics (Fi)
    Extroverted Sensing (Se)
    Extroverted Ethics (Fe)
    Introverted Sensing (Si)
    Extroverted Logic (Te)
    Introverted Intuition (Ni)

    Themes

    Ti: analysis, hierarchy, classification, understanding, order, system, structure, formal logic

    Ne: potential/possibility, the unique and unusual, ability, essence, perception of the whole, uncertainty, the unknown, search, internal makeup, suddenness, chance, being, permanence, impermanence

    Fi: like/dislike, decency and niceness, morals, good/bad, etiquette, humanism, attraction/repulsion, empathy, compassion, attitude towards other human beings, how others are treated, think about other's humanity "let's hear his side," judgements determined by people doing things

    Se: authority, influence, desire, political interest/personal investment, competition/struggle, willpower, impact, force, appearance, readiness, tactics, territory

    Fe: emotions and emotional expression, passion, mood, excitation, exuberance, romanticism, imitation, acting, not a moral arbiter of good/evil, how they are treated as opposed to how others are treated, sympathy, at certain instances disregards other people's humanity in certain situations, judgements are determined by the situation - at things being done

    Si: harmony, pleasure, health, comfort, pleasantness, satisfaction, convenience, quality, cosiness, aesthetics

    Te: benefit, efficiency, action, knowledge, method, mechanism, act, work, motion, reason, technology, fact, expediency, economy, asks "why" to get information, facts, analysis collected data to make logical conclusions, law, legal right, generally accepted knowledge and rules/laws is more the realm of Te

    Ni: development over time (processes), cause and effect, history, planning, forecasting, past/future, rhythm, speed, urgency, fantasy

    States of Mind

    Ti: clarity and exactitude of thought, a sense of order and regularity in different levels of structure; a sense of building a complete system from simple and well-understood parts.

    Ne: a state of trying to see novel connections between or combinations of previously disparate things; a continual searching for change and newness, including things unexpected and random

    Fi: endearment, closeness, moral satisfaction, and emotional sensitivity; deep personal conviction that may produce moral firmness and resolve; love, hatred, or disgust for others.

    Se: a mobilized state full of vitality and energy or implied strength; the desire to make strong, bold, and powerful movements

    Fe: passions; the desire to express one's feelings and experiences through expressive gestures such as dance or song

    Si: a physically relaxed and comfortable state free of irritants; enjoying the pleasure of the moment

    Te: an active, but steady and purposeful state conducive to performing goal-oriented activitie

    Ni: a dreamy, mysterious, wistful, melancholic, or reflective state of inner discovery and searching; reflecting upon the future or the past
    OK for starters, I strongly feel that Fi and Fe in socionics are clearly mislabeled when compared to their MBTI counterparts.

    Edit: I also have suspicions around Ni and Ne.

  3. #193
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est

    Check these two descriptions of ISTp and INFj, I don't know if they are from credible sources however, when I read them, I can clearly see that they are describing MBTI ISTP and INFJ. I don't understand why this pattern keeps repeating.

    Socionics Description: The Best ISTP Guide Ever Written

    Excerpt^:

    One problem for the ISTps is that they can be emotionally irritated; and sometimes even be unstable. They might not take teasing or any form of deprecation well. When ISTps feel hurt, or their ethics are judged, they push away and withdraw from others. They can show rude or tactless behavior towards people, sometimes flat out ignoring them. When they either feel harmed or frustrated, their generally placid appearance quickly turns fiery and aggressive. In their aggression, they might hit or throw something to let their energy out. ISTps may also become pushy when they run out of patience.

    ISTps might have some odd behavior around friends or family. Too much emotional drama can be strenuous to an ISTp. Their unsociability may arise from people not being trustworthy and polite to them, and it increases when others start to question them about their poor social skills. When an ISTp does feel welcome in a group of people, they might even be talkative and friendly. Only the fear of not being accepted will restrain them. When an ISTp feels like he is out of the loop, or that others are verbally hurting him in some way, he might say some insensitive, blunt, things, often without thinking about it. This is because it is a programmed defense mechanism they have, and cannot control it. Unexpectedly, the ISTp’s mood will shoot up when they realize that the other people around them weren’t either offended or left the ISTp behind. It may look cruel to people around them, but this is how an ISTp lets people get closer to them. After the initial contact, the ISTp will try to keep you as a friend as long as they can, secretly valuing deep relationships with people.
    Socionics Description: The Best INFJ Guide Ever Written

    Excerpt^:

    INFjs have difficulty refusing the needs and demands of others, and usually comply without taking much thought to their own needs. However, they may bottle up those emotions until some breaking point, where an INFj may flee from a pressuring situation leaving others bewildered. They have difficulty breaking unwanted relations, and may comply with the desires of those by which they have no personal interest; over people may not be truly made aware to their feelings in result.

    INFjs may often lack awareness of their surroundings, and have a poor concept of time; usually they are not very inclined to participate in sporting or outdoor activities.

    As lovers of routine, INFjs love orderly surroundings; they find peace in structured environments, and seek to keep their lives well on track. But, they may have difficulty realizing their dreams and desires.

    Oversensitive and self-conscious, they are vulnerable to physical discomforts, small headaches, messy hair, and unclean clothes mostly resulting from the immense pressure they place upon themselves to live a happy life in a nice comfortable atmosphere. However much time they spend to provide these things for themselves and others, they are not always very good at achieving them, but they depend on it for their own survival and well-being.
    So, how to find a credible source for socionics type descriptions and type test?

    If you can point out both, I wanna give a try to the test and the description of the resulting type.

  4. #194
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est

    http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...r-written.html

    This^ description gives the following function descriptions as well. Do they fit socionics function descriptions?

    Ne: The second function of the INFj is Ne, by which the essence of ideas arrive and insights into their development arise. With this function, it is possible to collect multiple perspectives, concepts, ideas, and beliefs in order to register into a readily available databank their entirety and the various conscious considerations concerning them as they stand in the abstract theoretical world and in order to derive a global picture of them. However, Ne also maintains an active neutral stance on all of the whole of its inputs, even if the whole of the input of one core belief, concept, or idea, conflicts with any of the other core beliefs, concepts, or ideas it remains non-biased and registers them all as equals. Probably the most powerful aspect of Ne is an ability to see potential in the most obscure forms and to believe in them. Being an extroverted function, Ne cannot derive data from within and must amass information from outside of itself and in the here and now to survive as a function or at all.
    The bolded part^ sounds eerily like MBTI Ni function.

    Ni: The eigth function of the this type is Ni. Strong and lacking, it remains to the INFj something to be loathed. Though some use may come from this function in the tracking of time, patterns, and simple predictions, this function remains the vehicle by which the old becomes abandoned and the new comes about. For the INFj, Ni truly represents all that inferiority is and the uselessness of false potential, and so long as new beliefs emerge and there remains something to be considered, out with the old and in with the new! Loyalty to a strong qualified belief system will never interest an INFj!
    May be MBTI Ne. Will check best INFp description to see how it is described in lead position:

    Ni: The first function of the INFp is Ni, by which the essence of ideas arrive and insights into their development arise. With this function, it is possible index from within ones self an active belief system developed and derived through time, experience, knowledge, and the patterns of ones own personal life as entered through what could be considered a living journal. Every day and every hour and every minute of a person’s life is catalogued within this journal for future considerations and also for review of past successes and mistakes in order to make stunning predictions into the development of various concepts. Being an introverted function, Ni has an active ability to self-sustain itself and moves actively between an abstract theoretical world located in the future and past in order to sustain itself as an active function.
    My personal understanding of MBTI Ni = cruncher\condenser and MBTI Ne = generator.

    MBTI Ni reduces things down to their essence and recognizes patterns, whereas MBTI Ne expands into new ideas and generates possibilities. The bolded part might be MBTI Ne. The description is too ambiguous.

  5. #195
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @Alea_iacta_est

    Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.
    This^ is MBTI Fe.

    Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.
    This^ is MBTI Fi.

    Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent but not obvious traits) of a thing, estimating the potential and latent capabilities for people and things, and visualizing the likely outcome of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.
    This^ is MBTI Ni.

    Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character.
    This^ is MBTI Ne.

    I think this difference in function labeling is the reason why type descriptions and the function order does not match. This is like cold war all over again US giving one label and USSR giving another to the same thing.

  6. #196
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    White (Introverted) Intuition
    shorthand designation: Ni

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses innate strategic abilities and is able to choose the most optimal moments for different activities: when to give battle, if necessary, and when to avoid battle, when that would be more appropriate. Interaction in time might be interpreted as the ability to avoid collisions with objects and hence avoid objects' reflection within oneself.
    This^ is MBTI Ne.

    Black (Extraverted) Intuition
    shorthand designation: Ne

    Perceives information about objects' potential energy — for example, information about the physical and mental abilities and potential of a person. This perception implies the ability to understand the structure of objects and phenomena and grasp their inner substance. This element determines a person's ability or inability to see the real potential energy of one's surroundings.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has pronounced cognitive interests. He is constantly studying underlying phenomena, which he is able to communicate to others quite successfully by making complicated things simple [!! not all are able to explain things well]. Likes to explain to others his understanding of things. In favorable conditions becomes a scientist or writer [!! not necessarily true]. Is able to find optimal ways of increasing objects' potential energy. "Energizes" others with his understanding of the potential energy of surrounding objects.
    This^ is MBTI Ni. MBTI Ni simplifies things into analogies or the sort as I said earlier.

  7. #197
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    The bolded part you indicated in is undoubtedly Fe. Fi users don't express enthusiasm or any strong emotions to others, instead choosing to internally experience them and treasure them.

    Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.
    The fact that this sound like Fi indicates your lack of understanding involving both the IM elements and the JCF functions.

    Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.
    This quote is more indicative of Fi than Fe, though I can see how you could have chosen Fe, merely on the basis that the word "social hierarchy" is mentioned. The first bolded represents how users have a deeper understanding of relationships and the value in objects. Furthermore this leads to a deeper understanding of not only what you like or dislike but what others might like or dislike (on a deeper yet less broad degree)

    Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent but not obvious traits) of a thing, estimating the potential and latent capabilities for people and things, and visualizing the likely outcome of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.
    Except for the fact that is the assessment of static possibilities, i.e. being able to see the possible potential of others instead. For the questioning of why an event occurs, :Ne does not produce a probable analysis but weighs all of the possible causes of an event, i.e. brainstorming the myriad of reasons an object got to the way it is (breadth over depth).

    Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character.
    The fact that you can actually read this and think Ne is absolutely mind-boggling. Not only does this accurately lay out the dynamic attitude of the function itself and how it bases its assessments on dynamic patterns not in the physical environment but in the conceptual playground, but it also includes the dissociate attitude of the function itself; instead of focusing how something could possibly have gotten this way in the environment and all of the possibilities that could be achieved in the hypothetical environment, this function is able to detach and see the invisible strings that indicate why things are the way they are and where they are going to be.

    Ni also does not simplify things into analogies, that is Ne. In fact, that is basic Jungian Ne (this acts like this, metaphors, similes, anything that conveys conceptual constants through dynamic physical circumstances (Ne/Si axis)).

    In short, your analysis is based on what you want to see instead of what actually is, that, or, you have no absolute clue of what the actual Jungian functions's properties are and are merely mistaken.


    Also, I've said this about 3 times. Sociotype profiles are wrong. Do we use the MBTI INFJ profiles to type people as INFJs here, or do we use the functions?

    ISTps might have some odd behavior around friends or family. Too much emotional drama can be strenuous to an ISTp. Their unsociability may arise from people not being trustworthy and polite to them*, and it increases when others start to question them about their poor social skills. When an ISTp does feel welcome in a group of people, they might even be talkative and friendly. Only the fear of not being accepted will restrain them. When an ISTp feels like he is out of the loop, or that others are verbally hurting him in some way, he might say some insensitive, blunt, things, often without thinking about it. This is because it is a programmed defense mechanism they have, and cannot control it. Unexpectedly, the ISTp’s mood will shoot up when they realize that the other people around them weren’t either offended or left the ISTp behind. It may look cruel to people around them, but this is how an ISTp lets people get closer to them. After the initial contact, the ISTp will try to keep you as a friend as long as they can, secretly valuing deep relationships with people.
    Oh, look, Fe PoLR.

    *That's Fi-valuing>Fe-valuing, unquestionably in both systems.

    Also, you can't claim that Fe Vulnerable is Anima, as that would mean claiming that Demonstrative Ti is Hero, meaning that Lead Si is Critical Parent.

    EDIT: Also, both systems use the function perspectives Je, Ji, Pe, and Pi, so it would be wrong to assume that a Pe element in one sounds more like a Pi element in the other, as Pe and Pi are both fundamentally different from each other yet possess similar qualities in both systems.

  8. #198
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The bolded part you indicated in is undoubtedly Fe. Fi users don't express enthusiasm or any strong emotions to others, instead choosing to internally experience them and treasure them.
    No, MBTI Fe is a construct designed to gauge people's attitudes towards the individual and produce appropriate gestures so as to negotiate with people. MBTI Fe is like a protocol. That's why some MBTI Fi users call MBTI Fe as fake. Genuine intense emotions like enthusiasm are products of MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it. MBTI Fe OTOH is the filtered version of Fi and aims for appropriateness in expression of emotion felt so as to observe proper social etiquette and avoid conflict with others. MBTI Fi OTOH is concerned with raw expression of emotions felt without consideration for how others feel about that pure expression of emotion.

    So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    This quote is more indicative of Fi than Fe, though I can see how you could have chosen Fe, merely on the basis that the word "social hierarchy" is mentioned. The first bolded represents how users have a deeper understanding of relationships and the value in objects. Furthermore this leads to a deeper understanding of not only what you like or dislike but what others might like or dislike (on a deeper yet less broad degree)
    No, it is as I said above. MBTI Fe is concerned about not offending others and catering to their needs whereas MBTI Fi is more concerned about genuine self expression without concern for others' preferences except for a few intimate friends and people. Just ask xxFPs in the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Except for the fact that is the assessment of static possibilities, i.e. being able to see the possible potential of others instead. For the questioning of why an event occurs, :Ne does not produce a probable analysis but weighs all of the possible causes of an event, i.e. brainstorming the myriad of reasons an object got to the way it is (breadth over depth).
    No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The fact that you can actually read this and think Ne is absolutely mind-boggling. Not only does this accurately lay out the dynamic attitude of the function itself and how it bases its assessments on dynamic patterns not in the physical environment but in the conceptual playground, but it also includes the dissociate attitude of the function itself; instead of focusing how something could possibly have gotten this way in the environment and all of the possibilities that could be achieved in the hypothetical environment, this function is able to detach and see the invisible strings that indicate why things are the way they are and where they are going to be.
    Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ni also does not simplify things into analogies, that is Ne. In fact, that is basic Jungian Ne (this acts like this, metaphors, similes, anything that conveys conceptual constants through dynamic physical circumstances (Ne/Si axis)).
    I do it all the time. That's how I can understand things more easily. By condensing a concept into its bare essence and then overlaying it on a readily available framework thru an analogy, thereby ending up with a simpler model that is much easier to view from different angles and manipulate if need be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    In short, your analysis is based on what you want to see instead of what actually is, that, or, you have no absolute clue of what the actual Jungian functions's properties are and are merely mistaken.
    Perhaps, just ask others on the forum.

    Yes, we use type descriptions to type people. They serve as templates to understand how a type acts. There are good descriptions and bad descriptions. I don't write them off as incorrect completely, just as better or worse.

    How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?

    And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?

    I think the system is built on identifying common patterns/types in people and then building a function model to explain those patterns rather than the other way around.

    Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?

    I think the type descriptions has to come first because without first identifying behavioural patterns in people, you cannot form a model to simulate the pattern. So the model is dependent on type descriptions, therefore you cannot write them off.

    How did you decide that type descriptions are wrong?

    So, identified patterns in people = Te data. Model to explain Te data = Ti data.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Retmeishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Bringing this thread back, but with new stuff.

    The Vulnerable Function creates feelings of suspicion, loathing, and annoyance when it receives information specific to it, but due to the fact that the Vulnerable Function is a Producing function, it is a way of looking at the world in a critical light.
    This happened to me just today. +Fe is my vulnerable function. I was sitting outside eating some food next to the grocery store before I rode my bike home, and some kids were walking across the parking lot talking loudly to each other. For some reason, they annoyed me. One girl loudly expressed emotions: 'STOP IT! Stop looking at me!' because someone was saying something about her clothing. She was expressing annoyance, and her emotional expressions made *me* feel annoyed whether I liked it or not. I didn't want to feel annoyed along with her. I just wanted to sit there peacefully eating my food. I instantly knew that I disliked this girl, even though I had only overheard one or two sentences that she said. It was this loud, whiny voice. I'm not sure why I was noticing this today. The only way I had to describe it was, 'I don't want to feel annoyed along with you. Stop making me feel your feelings. I want to just feel my own feelings by myself.'

  10. #200
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No, MBTI Fe is a construct designed to gauge people's attitudes towards the individual and produce appropriate gestures so as to negotiate with people. MBTI Fe is like a protocol. That's why some MBTI Fi users call MBTI Fe as fake. Genuine intense emotions like enthusiasm are products of MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it. MBTI Fe OTOH is the filtered version of Fi and aims for appropriateness in expression of emotion felt so as to observe proper social etiquette and avoid conflict with others. MBTI Fi OTOH is concerned with raw expression of emotions felt without consideration for how others feel about that pure expression of emotion.

    So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.



    No, it is as I said above. MBTI Fe is concerned about not offending others and catering to their needs whereas MBTI Fi is more concerned about genuine self expression without concern for others' preferences except for a few intimate friends and people. Just ask xxFPs in the forum.



    No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.



    Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.



    I do it all the time. That's how I can understand things more easily. By condensing a concept into its bare essence and then overlaying it on a readily available framework thru an analogy, thereby ending up with a simpler model that is much easier to view from different angles and manipulate if need be.



    Perhaps, just ask others on the forum.

    Yes, we use type descriptions to type people. They serve as templates to understand how a type acts. There are good descriptions and bad descriptions. I don't write them off as incorrect completely, just as better or worse.

    How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?

    And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?

    I think the system is built on identifying common patterns/types in people and then building a function model to explain those patterns rather than the other way around.

    Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?

    I think the type descriptions has to come first because without first identifying behavioural patterns in people, you cannot form a model to simulate the pattern. So the model is dependent on type descriptions, therefore you cannot write them off.

    How did you decide that type descriptions are wrong?

    So, identified patterns in people = Te data. Model to explain Te data = Ti data.
    First off, you didn't read the entire line of expression. It is said they expressed enthusiasm physically and expressed emotions to others in an outward way. Extroverted Feeling is pouring feelings and emotions into the environment (usually aimed at achieving a goal of Pi, Si-Fe would be expressing emotions to make others comfortable and in a comfortable emotional atmosphere) while Introverted Feeling is keeping feelings and emotions in the self while exploring them and deeping them.

    MBTI Fi as well as authentic bodily expressions of it.
    Nope. That's Fe. Fi turns feelings toward physical expression (as in art, music, etc.) and abstract ideas (as is in the concept of love, the concept of despair, or even ideas in general, an attitude towards them). Fe is readily expressing emotions through body language and being highly open about your emotions and your realistic feeling towards stimuli. The difference is rather easy to tell, when winning a valuable award or reward, the Fe user will usually shout with joy and enthusiasm (pouring emotions outward), while the Fi user will usually feel good internally and remain pleasant and calm on the outside (except in cases where there is an Fi-Se mechanism, where perhaps physical expression will be shared, but not really with emotions, such as an angry xNTJ, who will bottle up emotions internally but end up having their internal emotions manifest into a physical compulsion to impose their will on the environment with, for example, punching something, while keeping their anger internalized*).

    So, MBTI Fi = socionics Fe. Just show these descriptions to some Fi users in the forum and ask for their feedback if you doubt my judgment.
    Please do. I severely doubt your judgement.

    No, assesment of static things is MBTI Ni's job. Reducing things down to a single possible conclusion is MBTI Ni's doing. That's why INxJs appear as single minded. MBTI Ni draws out a single conclusion from an available or given set of data at any given time. Again consult with a confirmed INxJ.
    Oh, look at that, you took the bait. Dynamic-Static isn't a quality of the Jungian Functions. You don't know what you are talking about.

    Do you remember those shitty "Ah-ha" moment descriptions for Ni? Did you ever think that perhaps there was a reason behind them? It's not because they get the general idea of a concept, it is that they get the general idea of what is happening around them or what they are seeing.

    In Socionics, we have Static-Dynamic to explain these things.
    , is a static function, meaning that it provides the "Ah-ha" moment for static ideas. Like explaining to them how an engine works. You have to wait for it to all click as they look at it from several different angles mentally, and they just immediately understand how an engine works. They see all of the different parts of the engine in their mind, and they see how they each move to create the whole. This is a static construction. They see hypothetical properties of hypothetical things (Ne) and see how it might work in the dynamics of the environment (Si). This is Ne/Si axis

    , is a dynamic function, meaning that it provides the "Ah-ha" moment for dynamic situations and ideas. They will see physical properties of things in the immediate present (Se) and interpret it in the larger scale of things that is hypothetically happening around them (Ni). Seeing a dent on the right side of a car, for instance, can be derived to mean that the car was hit turning left, meaning that the fault was probably the driver's judgement abilities of the car's relative speed coming straight and his window to turn left. Furthermore, it can then be derived that if the person is sensible, then he will most likely be much more cautious when turning left on intersections. Ni weaves a perception for that which has a physical manifestation, explaining it, and explaining what that property will lead to. This is why Ni users are said to be able to grasp at patterns that others can't see (and why they are often denoted as natural strategists), because they are immersed in the immaterial, dynamic patterns that can give them an advantage of seeing what comes next. Thus, they are immersed in these patterns (), and piece those patterns together by physical details (static constants in the physical environment). This is / axis.

    Reducing static concepts and hypothetical immediate possibilities down to a single general idea is the doing of Ne.
    Reducing dynamic concepts and hypothetical circumstances down to a single general idea is the doing of Ni.

    This is another reason why xNxJ's are described as being patient, as they can intuitively sense the changing of the winds in the patterns. They know what to wait for, and if they are confident enough, they can act on them easily and strike not with force but with finesse. An example of this would probably be two INTJ's plotting the others' demise, such as the story-line between Walter White and Gus Fring in Breaking Bad, as they both are able to realize the other's plans on an incredible level and avoid danger while simultaneously knowing when to strike.

    Being able to guess dynamic turn of events and able to opportunize possibilities is what ENTPs and ENFPs do all the time. That's MBTI Ne's doing. Ask for feedback from ENxPs if you doubt me. That's how ENTPs get their inventor trait. That's how ENFPs seek out ways to entertain themselves.
    It may look like dynamic turns of events, but unlike the INxJ casting their pattern sail, the ENxP's see the immediate potential of ideas, and instead of casting a sail, bring a boat with oars to paddle not where the patterns take them, but where they think they should go. This is why ENxP's always have a "let's" attitude toward ideas, as any kind of immediate potential to do something excites them. They want to act on anything with potential, and this is why they are entrepreneurs, they can see the relative worth of an idea as a constant, whereas the INxJ's can see the relative worth of an idea in the long run.

    How can you claim that those type descriptions are wrong so easily and with so much confidence? Doesn't that undermine the credibility of the entire socionics system?
    Because type descriptions are written by people, and people are terrible judges of character, and are apt at being wrong. The "Descriptions" are based on what the writer thinks a sociotype acts like, preferring to make assumptions about a sociotype's lifestyle instead of sticking to the mechanical model, explaining how they work and not how they probably work. For instance, an LSI description says that LSI's should be hard-working diligent individuals because of how works (the need to be doing something). What they don't realize is that is the motivation to do what the sociotype wants to do, so the sociotype might be rather lazy when dealing with tasks they don't want to do in real life, thus leading them to disbelieve they are an LSI because of that very line. Model A is the system, the descriptions are excess bullshit that can be interpreted to mean anything.

    And how can you so easily write off several socionics type descriptions that doesn't fit with the j-p conversion?
    I didn't write them off because they don't fit with the j-p conversion (which they can be interpreted to actually fit with j-p conversion, because type descriptions are ambiguous in specificity). I wrote them off because type descriptions in general, suck.

    Is the model configuration built on type descriptions/categories or are type descriptions built on the model configuration? Which comes first?
    Socionics is a construction of Ti, the type descriptions are a product of the Model and interviews with people who supposedly fit the model at the time Socionics was created.

    *The silent angry types, when they are angry, they stop speaking, and immediately try to break something to demonstrate their anger in a creative (Se) fashion.

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