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Thread: The PoLR Thread

  1. #181
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    My understanding is that Lead - Hero, Creative - Good Parent, Role - Child, Vulnerable - Anima, Suggestive - Trickster (this is clearly the trickster, even the names match), Mobilizing - Demon, Ignoring - Antihero, Demonstrative - Critical Parent.
    Explain this. Now. No personal relation. Explain it with properties and similarities.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    @yeghor, if this is the case:

    Function 3 – role function, is a weak but conscious function. One generally tries to be at least adequate in areas where use of the role function is necessary. Moreover, one generally uses it in situations of social adaptation (e.g. introducing themselves to an unknown person). However, generally one has very little control or confidence over the role function, and criticism is painfully acknowledged with respect to it. Tactful assistance is required from someone else's strong function to overcome the problems associated with the role function. According to Bukalov, this function is 2D (Ex, No), or situation invariant, because it cannot adapt to the unusual situation beyond social norms.

    Ti
    Why do you value Ti so much, as it is clearly obvious that you prefer Ti over Te. You are suspicious of any kind of facts or external structures that don't make sense according to your own worldview of personal relation. There is no way you aren't Ti Mobilizing. It's painfully obvious. You don't accept being adequate with Ti, I've seen you, you need to be confident with it, that's why you designed those Pet Theories, based on How you Feel the systems should be working (Fe) and how you can achieve that under the guise of rationalism (Fe/Ti axis).

    Function 6 – mobilizing function. This is a weak and unconscious function which one often understands poorly. Nonetheless, this function has a strong influence over one's actions. Individuals requires assistance from someone who uses it confidently in order to understand it. Often an individual is only aware that they are totally unaware of how to use this function. At the same time, it's 2D function, so it's capable of collecting a number of easy receipts for daily needs. Being successful in aspects of this function makes one happy and motivated. (That's why it's called mobilizing.) - Si
    Except the function description didn't tell you that the Mobilizing function both inflates and is surrounded by an air of confidence (remember the spread-your-wings thing from early?) You will think that you are actually really good at this function but actually be rather bad at it, you are unaware of how well you use this function and are prone to believing that you can use this function better than you actually can. It's called Mobilizing because it inflates readily to meet information received, it's essentially what you try really hard to be good at, but really aren't. (This is definitely Ti for you)

  3. #183
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Didn't notice before, but your own typing of yourself in Model A is impossible.

    NiFe
    TiSe
    TeSi
    NeFi

    Because Model A is actually organized by the Jungian function names, and must therefore follow certain rules. This is why the entire side of your claim is now destroyed.

    You cannot be Ni Lead and Ti Role in Socionics, there is no type for that. (Go look it up, trust me, there isn't)
    You cannot be Fe Creative and Se Vulnerable in Socionics, there is no type for that.
    You cannot be Te Suggestive and Ne Ignoring in Socionics, there is no type for that.
    You cannot be Si Mobilizing and Fi Demonstrative in Socionics, there is no type for that.

    Here is Model A for an Extroverted Judging type in the very system.

    JePi
    JePi
    JiPe
    JiPe

    Here is Model A for an Introverted Judging type in the very system.

    JiPe
    JiPe
    JePi
    JePi

    Here is Model A for an Extroverted Perception type in the very system.

    PeJi
    PeJi
    PiJe
    PiJe

    Here is Model A for an Introverted Perception type in the very system.

    PiJe
    PiJe
    PeJi
    PeJi

    Not only does this prove you have absolutely no clue what you are doing, it also proves that your Beebe Model associations are wrong based on the foundation of the entire system of Socionics.

    Let's take the INFp (NiFe)

    NiFe
    SiTe
    SeTi
    NeFi

    This is the exact Model A for an INFp, this is defined by the creators of the entire system of Socionics.

    Beebe's Model fits specific functions into its framework and operates under the Jungian System.

    Ergo, an INFJ is

    Hero Ni
    Parent Fe
    Child Ti
    Anima Se
    Antihero Ne
    Senex Fi
    Trickster Te
    Demon Si.

    Assuming that the functions in Socionics are equal to that of what was meant to be the base functions of the Jungian Anarchic System, then in Socionics, each function should have a counter-perspective on top of it, as the Role function in Socionics completely cuts you off from the Lead function, signifying that the same temperament function is in use (Pi, for instance, Ni being cut off by Si Role), then the two systems meld perfectly together. The only problem is that you have to rearrange the bottom 3 rows into their places in Socionics.

    Ni-Fe
    Si-Te
    Se-Ti
    Ne-Fi

    So, the system must produce:

    Hero-Parent
    Demon-Trickster
    Anima-Child
    Antihero-Senex

    Or else it is not correct, as the Functions 1 and 3 must be of the same function perspective (Ji, Je, Pi, or Pe), Functions 2 and 4, Functions 5 and 7, and Functions 6 and 8; otherwise, Model A can't work, and neither can the Beebe Model.

    In Beebe's Model, if you have a Perception type like the ENTP, then Hero and Demon must be the same perspective, Parent and Trickster must be the same perspective, Child and Senex must be the same perspective, and Anima and Antihero must be the same perspective.

    ENTP in Beebe's Model is specifically laid out to be: Hero Ne, Parent Ti, Child Fe, Inferior Si, Antihero Ni, Senex Te, Trickster Fi, and Demon Se.

    Therefore, your claim violates both systems.

  4. #184
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @yeghor What the absolute fuck is telling you that the Vulnerable function is the Inferior function? Is it literally the name? Because that is the only thing in common with it.

    Why would the inferior, something which is only negative in the smaller sense and positive in the larger view of the self, be branded as something that is the anathema of the type? Why does type theory tell you to get into touch with your less conscious functions, then, if it correlated with a function that is meant to never be understood, trusted, or revered?
    The anima or "soul" is shadowed by a "demon" which interprets situations through the opposite orientation of the inferior. (This is basically a "negative anima", and it appears a "double negative" principle leads to it being the same gender as the person). Since that was already the most suppressed area, then its shadow manifests in a particularly destructive fashion. It can also become an "angel" or "transformer" in bad situations.
    Anima/Animus: Jung uses this term to refer variously to the Soul-Image and also to the part of the personality that is “complementary to the character of the persona,” and that “contains all those fallible human qualities [the] persona lacks.” He says we project these qualities in a love-hate relationship onto the opposite sex, the Anima for men, Animus for women. Marie-Louise von Franz elaborates on the typological meaning as follows: “Our conscious realm is like a room with four doors, and it is the fourth door by which the Shadow, the Animus and Anima, and the personification of the Self come in.” For this reason, the inferior function is said to carry the archetypal energy of the Anima or Animus.
    These say that anima = inferior and demon = shadow of inferior. In the example you gave about ILI and SLI below, it's talking about how MBTI INTPs and ISTPs are irritated by Fe because that's their inferior function in MBTI. And that's a function position that each type uses consciously.

    That passage is not talking about MBTI INTJs and ISTJs, it's talking about INTPs and ISTPs. I've been around ISTPs and seen this action. Anyway, so, becuase inferior in MBTI being in the conscious position and inferior position, in that sense, inferior in socionics cannot be one of the socionics that's unconsciously used. It cannot be the suggestive function which the description says is unconsciously used.

    A type with PoLR Fe (ILI and SLI) does not see the point of activities revolving around excessive displays of emotion or behavior that does not reach a concrete or tangible outcome. They would rather keep conversations serious and to the point, for he/she is overwhelmed by such emotional expression, making it quite difficult to express themselves. In social interactions they will make a serious effort to reduce their level of emotive expressiveness such as being too joyful or sad, believing that showing these signs will make them vulnerable to be influenced by others. They don't hold quite a high standard for how people as a group feel about something (even if outnumbered by many when making a personal decision), and instead value situations where they can speak their own subjective opinions and feelings freely. (Does this sound like Fucking Fe inferior and valued?)
    Don't you see this is talking about susceptibility to yet inability to handle Fe, which corresponds with being inferior in Fe, which corresponds to IxTP types in MBTI? They hate Fe in the same sex yet if the model holds they must crave it in the opposite (desired) sex. IxTP men should be susceptible to ExFJ women.

    So inferior = vulnerable function. Demon = reverse of vulnerable function, which is the mobilizing function.

    For SLI:

    Vulnerable = Fe = inferior = anima
    Demon = reverse anima = Fi = 6th function of SLI = Mobilizing function.

    A type with PoLR (SEI and IEI) tends to reject facts given from a source which they are personally unfamiliar with, firmly believing they can make their own decisions that are solely based on their own perspective and reasoning about it. They will tend to become defensive when questioned about their rationale or efficiency, pointing out that there is no such thing as objective "fact". Also, these types experience a significant level of stress in tending to day-to-day must do's and responsibilities in life (like routine maintenance or working productively), manifesting itself as a general laziness or hyper-diligence. (Oh, look, it's you. This doesn't sound like a valued inferior either, I'm afraid)
    This is talking about IxFps being irritated by Te isn't it? Which means SEI and IEI are actually MBTI IxFPs. Yeah it sounds like talking about me yet, I know what objective fact is and isn't and will give weight to it.

    All this problem is stemming from the misconception that socionics types and MBTI types need to switch (for introverts?) j and p for conversion.,

    j-p conversion is not necessary.

  5. #185
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Vulnerable = Fe = inferior = anima
    Demon = reverse anima = Fi = 6th function of SLI = Mobilizing function.
    You've made an error.

    The Demon must be the same perspective as the Hero.

    Ji is not Pi. (You claim Ji Demon = Fi for SLI, when SLI's Hero is Si, Demon must be Ni)

    Your model is flawed.

    The only way this can happen is through Lead and Role in Socionics, as they are of the same perspective.

    See my post above this one to realize your egregious errors.

  6. #186
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @yeghor, if this is the case:

    Why do you value Ti so much, as it is clearly obvious that you prefer Ti over Te. You are suspicious of any kind of facts or external structures that don't make sense according to your own worldview of personal relation. There is no way you aren't Ti Mobilizing. It's painfully obvious. You don't accept being adequate with Ti, I've seen you, you need to be confident with it, that's why you designed those Pet Theories, based on How you Feel the systems should be working (Fe) and how you can achieve that under the guise of rationalism (Fe/Ti axis).
    I think I value it cause it helps me make sense of my perceptions coming from the dominant function and provides a rationale for them, thereby allowing me soothe my fears that I am perceiving things that are not there. It helps me form Ni deductions into tangible forms.

    Except the function description didn't tell you that the Mobilizing function both inflates and is surrounded by an air of confidence (remember the spread-your-wings thing from early?) You will think that you are actually really good at this function but actually be rather bad at it, you are unaware of how well you use this function and are prone to believing that you can use this function better than you actually can. It's called Mobilizing because it inflates readily to meet information received, it's essentially what you try really hard to be good at, but really aren't. (This is definitely Ti for you)
    Yeah I flaunt Ti. That description might fit Ti. I am aware that I am bad at Si.

    I've already used the descriptions under vulnerable function to show inferior function and it's relation to anima and how demon relates to anima and how that corresponds to mobilizing function in socioics.

  7. #187
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I've already used the descriptions under vulnerable function to show inferior function and it's relation to anima and how demon relates to anima and how that corresponds to mobilizing function in socioics.
    It's a shame it violates both systems.

  8. #188
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    You've made an error.

    The Demon must be the same perspective as the Hero.

    Ji is not Pi. (You claim Ji Demon = Fi for SLI, when SLI's Hero is Si, Demon must be Ni)

    Your model is flawed.

    The only way this can happen is through Lead and Role in Socionics, as they are of the same perspective.

    See my post above this one to realize your egregious errors.
    Actually SLI's hero should be Ti which would fit with Fi, if what you mean by having the same perspective as lead is that they should be of the same type and direction. It's the socionics system that is garbled.

    INFJs lead is Ni and it's demon is Si. In socionics though somehow, INFjs' lead becomes Fi.

    I am giving up with socionics. Here's what I understand in MBTI for INFJ:

    Hero : Ni
    Good parent : Fe
    Child : Ti
    Anima : Se

    Antihero : Ne
    Critical parent : Fi
    Trickster : Te
    Demon : Si

    For INTP

    Hero : Ti
    Good parent : Ne
    Child : Si
    Anima : Fe

    Antihero : Te
    Critical parent : Ni
    Trickster : Se
    Demon : Fi

    This makes sense so far. In this model, internal feelings are what torments INTP and has a potential to destroy the individual. Also INTP is irritated by displays of Fe yet craves it in the opposite sex.

    INTJ OTOH would have a Si demon, which would mean INTJs would be haunted by past failures causing them to destroy their ego. THey also would be Se inferior which would mean they would be clumsy in body language and would not be able to handle high doses of Se yet crave it in the opposite sex.

    If that's what you are irritated with yet crave in opposite sex, you are an INTJ, if not, look for another type. You said not being aware of how you come across to others. That's not inferior Si of INTJ. THat's inferior Fe of IxTP.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Actually SLI's hero should be Ti which would fit with Fi, if what you mean by having the same perspective as lead is that they should be of the same type and direction. It's the socionics system that is garbled.

    INFJs lead is Ni and it's demon is Si. In socionics though somehow, INFjs' lead becomes Fi.

    I am giving up with socionics. Here's what I understand in MBTI for INFJ:

    Hero : Ni
    Good parent : Fe
    Child : Ti
    Anima : Se

    Antihero : Ne
    Critical parent : Fi
    Trickster : Te
    Demon : Si

    For INTP

    Hero : Ti
    Good parent : Ne
    Child : Si
    Anima : Fe

    Antihero : Te
    Critical parent : Ni
    Trickster : Se
    Demon : Fi

    This makes sense so far. In this model, internal feelings are what torments INTP and has a potential to destroy the individual. Also INTP is irritated by displays of Fe yet craves it in the opposite sex.

    INTJ OTOH would have a Si demon, which would mean INTJs would be haunted by past failures causing them to destroy their ego. THey also would be Se inferior which would mean they would be clumsy in body language and would not be able to handle high doses of Se yet crave it in the opposite sex.

    If that's what you are irritated with yet crave in opposite sex, you are an INTJ, if not, look for another type. You said not being aware of how you come across to others. That's not inferior Si of INTJ. THat's inferior Fe of IxTP.
    Actually SLI in Socionics is

    SiTe
    NiFe
    NeFi
    SeTi

    So you just went from acclaiming the Hero function as the Lead function to acclaiming the Hero function as the Demonstrative, thus making the type's most valued and trusted function one that is unconscious and unvalued. Contradiction.

  10. #190
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Actually SLI in Socionics is

    SiTe
    NiFe
    NeFi
    SeTi

    So you just went from acclaiming the Hero function as the Lead function to acclaiming the Hero function as the Demonstrative, thus making the type's most valued and trusted function one that is unconscious and unvalued. Contradiction.
    your correlations for arcehtypes for instance makes SLI ISTp fit with MBTI ISTJ. Yet, function descriptions under ISTp is defining MBTI ISTP rather than ISTJ.

    Does what I put forward as INFJ archetype functions fit with your mapping of archetypes for IEI INFp?

    The thing is though they may seem to fit funcriın order-wise, they don't fit description-wise.

    So we have two packaged products and the labels on each package talk about the same product and list the same ingredients yet, when we open both packages and ask others describe how they see/sense the product, they start describing two different products. So one of the prıducts is ckearly mispacked and mislabeled.

    I believe it's the socionics one. I am trying to understand why.

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