The beta quadra

[Zarathustra]

I have had a problem with comparing the two systems in the past. And pretty much stopped all together because the descriptions really didn't seem to line up to me.

But this reason really makes sense to me.

I know Azure's always said they were the same, but he never said why. So I couldn't just take that at face value.

But this is probably the most concrete explanation that someone could infer, that I've seen anyway.

Good stuff

Glad it helped

 

[Evo]

Yeah sure it matters what environment one grows up in. The descriptions won't ever line up perfectly because the system(s) behind it isn't (aren't) that great to explain every little thing about you.

They are 2 systems based off of the same guys work.

Neither system tackles every single microscopic detail about our lives.

In that way ^, the systems started off at equal standpoints.

Now using that as a starting point, one was interpreted from the Soviet Union, compared to being interpreted by America.

Of course the stereotypes are a little off, but the basic functions being described are the same.

But I'm only restating what has already been said. Just broken down more.

The part about the systems being equal is assumed knowledge.

 

[infinite]

They are 2 systems based off of the same guys work.

Neither system tackles every single microscopic detail about our lives.

In that way ^, the systems started off at equal standpoints.

Now using that as a starting point, one was interpreted from the Soviet Union, compared to being interpreted by America.

Of course the stereotypes are a little off, but the basic functions being described are the same.

But I'm only restating what has already been said. Just broken down more.

The part about the systems being equal is assumed knowledge.

Yes it's assumed knowledge and I believe it's the wrong assumption.

Quoting from my own post:

Think of it this way; the concept of extraversion is not a single concept but built up from several elements. You will have to consider this when deciding which definition of extraversion you want to use. You may want to address the dilemma by creating better concepts after you've discovered more about the actual workings of the subject.

I could quote more but you can just read the post if interested.

 

[LittleV]

Ah, and any ideas where you'd like to go, which field?

I'd rather not get into that here. Also, why do you care so much about someone else's opinion/why is it more important to beat someone than to get the 'truth' out? You were already explaining what practically every researcher agrees upon in regard to system consistency... the effort it takes to build a system - why are you doing this?

 

[Evo]

Yes it's assumed knowledge and I believe it's the wrong assumption.

Quoting from my own post:

Think of it this way; the concept of extraversion is not a single concept but built up from several elements. You will have to consider this when deciding which definition of extraversion you want to use. You may want to address the dilemma by creating better concepts after you've discovered more about the actual workings of the subject.

I could quote more but you can just read the post if interested.

Agreeing to disagree.

I understand what you're saying. I just prefer my opinion more. I don't really think that the functions are different.

 

[LittleV]

The functions aren't different... the systems' rules are. Objective reality isn't different... subjective reality is. Te is conscious for me... just not valued... but it's one of the bases of research. This is why research continues... and continues... and continues. People don't agree; and they don't realize how much they don't know. Science is a process; it's cooperation.

 

[infinite]

I'd rather not get into that here. Also, why do you care so much about someone else's opinion/why is it more important to beat someone than to get the 'truth' out? You were already explaining what practically every researcher agrees upon in regard to system consistency... the effort it takes to build a system - why are you doing this?

I dunno, I do like to get obsessed about things making sense and, in this specific case, about bad correlations as well and I like to try and show it to others how and where bad correlations do matter when they seem to ignore that

And yep I didn't really say anything new about stuff

I didn't say it's more important to beat someone btw.

Why you asking though?

Agreeing to disagree.

I understand what you're saying. I just prefer my opinion more. I don't really think that the functions are different.

Yeah ok. Why do you think they aren't different if I may ask?

 

[infinite]

The functions aren't different... the systems' rules are. Objective reality isn't different... subjective reality is. Te is conscious for me... just not valued... but it's one of the bases of research. This is why research continues... and continues... and continues. People don't agree. And they don't realize how much they don't know.

So um, what does typology give you that psychology studies at university didn't offer you?

 

[LittleV]

So um, what does typology give you that psychology studies at university didn't offer you?

I'm not all about typology and science; I value interpersonal experiences.

 

[infinite]

I'm not all about typology and science; I value interpersonal experiences.

So then what has typology offered to you that directly helps with that - interpersonal experiences - if you don't mind me asking?

 

[sulfit]

You don't strike me as infantile at all, actually. Playful, yes; childish, no.

Ne ego types are "child-like", not childish or infantile. There is a difference in these descriptors that is often overlooked.

Child-like means that they are exploratory in their approach, looking at everything around them anew, with "eyes of a child". So if you're making literal translations "infantile" -> infantile, you're going to be disappointed that Ne types aren't really like "infants". Many of them hold adult jobs, own businesses and homes, raise children, pay bills, etc. they do everything that is required of adults and don't behave like children, but still they retain this exploratory, curious, researcher-like approach to life. For Se types and types with strong Si things are as they are, "it is how it is" and that's it. But not so for Ne ego "child-like" types who like to imagine and explore alternatives.

I never said that I expected Ne types to sit around in diapers gurgling and sucking their thumbs all day long or to be incapable of holding down a job. Don't put words in my mouth, dude.

Glad we have that settled down. For a moment there I thought you were saying that Starry doesn't seem to you as infantile.

 

[sulfit]

When did you develop this flawed notion that you are entitled to a logical explanation from other people?

This troll sure does have a lot of time on his hands.

 

[sulfit]

Yeah lol [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] was not even able to put a sensible reply together to my post above.

Not that I know anything about his intellectual abilities; I just know that he's closed off from "reaching" because of god knows what kind of emotional bias for his own theory.

Zarathustra's an arrogant dimwit who will flood you with ad hominems to over-compensate for his flailing ego and flaunt his arrogance over the internet at any chance thrown at him.

Back when I used to post on this forum about socionics, he'd try argue me down. Now look how things have changed -- he's arguing about the socionics types of forum members he's never even met, lol. But it's not like he'd have the decency of humility to ever admit to it.

Don't give much weigh to anything he says. This stuffy troll is useful for entertainment purposes only.

 

[011235813]

Glad we have that settled down. For a moment there I thought you were saying that Starry doesn't seem to you as infantile.

You're assuming that I took the word literally when I meant it figuratively. I don't get why you have such a problem with me using the same language that socionics theorists use to describe Ne types.

And no, Starry doesn't seem (metaphorically) infantile to me. Probably because she has Ne blocked by Fi in the ego block, which has always seemed less childish to me than Ne blocked by Ti.

Gulenko agrees, too, which is apparent from his descriptions of the erotic styles of alpha and delta Ne types.

 

[LittleV]

I dunno, I do like to get obsessed about things making sense and, in this specific case, about bad correlations as well and I like to try and show it to others how and where bad correlations do matter when they seem to ignore that

And yep I didn't really say anything new about stuff

I didn't say it's more important to beat someone btw.

Why you asking though?

I wasn't asking about that; I am aware of the limitations of correlations and (generally) accepted your opinion, even though cognitive functions have not been supported to exist in the manner that Jung had suggested just yet to make any substantial conclusions. However, personality neuroscience has demonstrated that brain patterns covaried with traits. When there is a correlation established first... you could then examine the relationship further with other methods, or explain it for what it could indicate. I also liked how your interpretation of Extraversion showed that you understood the definition of a latent variable.

I was inquiring about why you were picking fights, but more so for you to envision the situation outside of yourself.

So then what has typology offered to you that directly helps with that - interpersonal experiences - if you don't mind me asking?

Sometimes, more knowledge (or preconceived notions) can take away from the needed mystery for excitement/romance.

It has taught me to be more careful in many regards... because I wouldn't necessarily say that typology is helpful as a rule.

 

[Dr Mobius]

Oh those poor Betas they do get a bit of a hard time, I blame it on all those muppets who read Beskovas horrific SLE and LSI descriptions and decide to act like caricatures. They apparently don’t know that severe mental illnesses, such as gross stupidity make people untypable. Then again I can’t say much, there are all those ILEs who sit there pining for a SEI to blow their nose and wipe their backside for them; why they tell what they think are utterly hysterical jokes.

Wow why is it that MBTI forums with subforums always have the same tedious debate? Seriously all we need now is a few crazy dualists. Ones who insist that those not in duality relationships are horrific monsters that would make Stalin weep.

May I suggest a compromise so that we don’t have the same argument for the next year in every thread?

Firstly use the socionics connotation ILE LII etc so as to not confuse the new people who stumble in here and incidentally start World War 3.

Secondly perhaps start a thread dedicated to this truly scintillating question; perhaps with links to work done by socionics experts?

 

[Stansmith]

Oh those poor Betas they do get a bit of a hard time, I blame it on all those muppets who read Beskovas horrific SLE and LSI descriptions and decide to act like caricatures. They apparently don’t know that severe mental illnesses, such as gross stupidity make people untypable. Then again I can’t say much, there are all those ILEs who sit there pining for a SEI to blow their nose and wipe their backside for them; why they tell what they think are utterly hysterical jokes.

Wow why is it that MBTI forums with subforums always have the same tedious debate? Seriously all we need now is a few crazy dualists. Ones who insist that those not in duality relationships are horrific monsters that would make Stalin weep.

May I suggest a compromise so that we don’t have the same argument for the next year in every thread?

Firstly use the socionics connotation ILE LII etc so as to not confuse the new people who stumble in here and incidentally start World War 3.

Secondly perhaps start a thread dedicated to this truly scintillating question; perhaps with links to work done by socionics experts?

I've seen a couple INFp's act that way also, strangely enough. A lot more cursewords, aggressive ad-hominem attacks, etc. - not that I consider it to be a problem, per se (it can often add a more genuine, spontaneous feel to the interactions that take place), but it's interesting to observe.

 

[Evo]

Yeah ok. Why do you think they aren't different if I may ask?

Well I don't really want to have to formulate an argument right now, cause I'm not that interested in the subject matter, and don't know your intent. So anything I say is going to be off the top of my head.

But for example there's a difference between objective sensing vs subjective sensing, and you can use that terminology between either system. There's also the part where, you know, the functions are labeled with the same names. Like the MBTI breakdown of an INTP is Ti, Ne, Si, Fe....and Socionics uses those exact same names of functions..Ti, Ne, etc....just maybe not in the same order.

 

[Starry]

My bloated ego is all tickled the wrong way too now.

As I'm sure you can understand sulfit...this thread being my introduction to the concepts of socionics... why someone of my type might refuse to outright swallow this system whole.

All I really care to know in this moment is if your statement above holds true for Te and Ti as well? In other words... is Te more objective and mature than Ti when it comes to forming relationships and character judgments ?

Zarathustra's an arrogant dimwit who will flood you with ad hominems to over-compensate for his flailing ego and flaunt his arrogance over the internet at any chance thrown at him.

Back when I used to post on this forum about socionics, he'd try argue me down. Now look how things have changed -- he's arguing about the socionics types of forum members he's never even met, lol. But it's not like he'd have the decency of humility to ever admit to it.

Don't give much weigh to anything he says. This stuffy troll is useful for entertainment purposes only.

sulfit, there's an enormous difference between attacking a system you've concluded is flawed...and solely as a consequence of that doubt the intellect of that system's practitioners (<-which literally happens all the time...everyday...to everyone. Ask any tarot card reader or acupuncturist or Christian or vegan or...) and attacking an individual's character. Perhaps it would be best if you were to separate your ego from socionics...so that you are in a position to present its concepts without becoming defensive and emotional about it.


Are you able to answer for me the question I raised yesterday?


Here's why I want to understand this...
I believe language...the words we make use of...profoundly shape our perceptions of reality. And so when I take a look at the words being used in this thread to define my type...how surprised do you think I am right now that the one member/person I know that is a true socionics buff ( [MENTION=10984]Azure Flame[/MENTION] )...has littered the internet with his hatred of NFPs? Not surprised at all...this all makes sense to me now.

Please tell me how Te and Ti are defined. Thank you.

 

[infinite]

Zarathustra's an arrogant dimwit who will flood you with ad hominems to over-compensate for his flailing ego and flaunt his arrogance over the internet at any chance thrown at him.

Back when I used to post on this forum about socionics, he'd try argue me down. Now look how things have changed -- he's arguing about the socionics types of forum members he's never even met, lol. But it's not like he'd have the decency of humility to ever admit to it.

Don't give much weigh to anything he says. This stuffy troll is useful for entertainment purposes only.

I certainly saw enough of the ad hominems.

I wasn't asking about that; I am aware of the limitations of correlations and (generally) accepted your opinion, even though cognitive functions have not been supported to exist in the manner that Jung had suggested just yet to make any substantial conclusions. However, personality neuroscience has demonstrated that brain patterns covaried with traits. When there is a correlation established first... you could then examine the relationship further with other methods, or explain it for what it could indicate. I also liked how your interpretation of Extraversion showed that you understood the definition of a latent variable.

The brain patterns stuff, is that Nardi or some other research?

I explained my stance about how I view weakish correlations because I know not everyone thinks that way even in official psychology research

Don't get me wrong, I still like psychology.

I was inquiring about why you were picking fights, but more so for you to envision the situation outside of yourself.

And what should happen after I envision it?

Do you personally have a problem with conflicts/fights in general?

Sometimes, more knowledge (or preconceived notions) can take away from the needed mystery for excitement/romance.

It has taught me to be more careful in many regards... because I wouldn't necessarily say that typology is helpful as a rule.

I agree, I certainly wouldn't use typology as I would a system based in hard science.

I use it to try and learn more about myself and it's worked for that to some extent.

Careful in what ways?

Wow why is it that MBTI forums with subforums always have the same tedious debate? Seriously all we need now is a few crazy dualists. Ones who insist that those not in duality relationships are horrific monsters that would make Stalin weep.

May I suggest a compromise so that we don’t have the same argument for the next year in every thread?

Firstly use the socionics connotation ILE LII etc so as to not confuse the new people who stumble in here and incidentally start World War 3.

Secondly perhaps start a thread dedicated to this truly scintillating question; perhaps with links to work done by socionics experts?

Yeah a dedicated thread on the function differences would work, I'll make one now.

And I totally agree that the correct notation matters.