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The beta quadra

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Yeah lol [MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] was not even able to put a sensible reply together to my post above. :D

Not that I know anything about his intellectual abilities; I just know that he's closed off from "reaching" because of god knows what kind of emotional bias for his own theory.

No.

If you remember, I told you I wouldn't be wasting any more time discussing issues with you.

And, no, you're wrong again: it's not an emotional bias, it's an intellectual one.

And it's only biased toward the truth.
 
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Ne ego types are "child-like", not childish or infantile. There is a difference in these descriptors that is often overlooked.

Child-like means that they are exploratory in their approach, looking at everything around them anew, with "eyes of a child". So if you're making literal translations "infantile" -> infantile, you're going to be disappointed that Ne types aren't really like "infants". Many of them hold adult jobs, own businesses and homes, raise children, pay bills, etc. they do everything that is required of adults and don't behave like children, but still they retain this exploratory, curious, researcher-like approach to life. For Se types and types with strong Si things are as they are, "it is how it is" and that's it. But not so for Ne ego "child-like" types who like to imagine and explore alternatives.

I never said that I expected Ne types to sit around in diapers gurgling and sucking their thumbs all day long or to be incapable of holding down a job. Don't put words in my mouth, dude.
 

infinite

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No.

If you remember, I told you I wouldn't be wasting any more time discussing issues with you.

And you based that on what? You were unable to explain even that in any sensible logical way.


And, no, you're wrong again: it's not an emotional bias, it's an intellectual one.

And it's only biased toward the truth.

It's an emotional bias, trust me, when you go around calling people who disagree with you "fools", that's emotion.
 

LittleV

Just a note...
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(For the sake of ease of speaking, let's assume MBTI-Socionics exact type overlap.)

As a note... I think this would generally hold true, as they should at least translate more often than not.

-----

To throw it out there: the Abridged Big-Five Dimensional Circumplex (AB4C) is a more complex version of the Big Five... in which the traits are synthesized. There's progress.
 

infinite

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As a note... I think this would generally hold true, as they should at least translate more often than not.

Just be careful with all the fuzzy logic. ;)

(NOTE: I'm actually talking about the fuzzy kind of logic, I'm not trying to offend you by calling your logical abilities crap or anything.)


To throw it out there: the Abridged Big-Five Dimensional Circumplex (AB4C) is a more complex version of the Big Five... in which the traits are synthesized. There's progress.

How are they synthesized? Or if that's too long to explain, have you got a good link?
 

LittleV

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Just be careful with all the fuzzy logic. ;)

(NOTE: I'm actually talking about the fuzzy kind of logic, I'm not trying to offend you by calling your logical abilities crap or anything.)

It's cool. I do research, so I'm accustomed to the intensive critiquing of even seemingly 'perfect' experiments. It helps the process.


How are they synthesized? Or if that's too long to explain, have you got a good link?

http://projects.ori.org/lrg/PDFs_papers/Bigfive-circum-jpsp92.pdf
 

Zarathustra

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And you based that on what? You were unable to explain even that in any sensible logical way.

It's an emotional bias, trust me, when you go around calling people who disagree with you "fools", that's emotion.

Based on dumb comments like these that completely miss the mark, are bereft of truth, add absolutely no value to my life, and, in fact, detract from my life by wasting the time I spent reading them when I could have been doing something more worthwhile.
 

infinite

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It's cool. I do research, so I'm accustomed to the intensive critiquing of even seemingly 'perfect' experiments. It helps the process.

http://projects.ori.org/lrg/PDFs_papers/Bigfive-circum-jpsp92.pdf

Alright & thanks :)

I just had a quick look for now;

However, all this is not to say that scientific theories of personality are superior to the sediment of lay perceptions.

Hahaha lovely. This is why I always hated the Big5 stuff.

The final truth about the structure of personality is at best an asymptotic concept: For example, the genetic base is likely to be so complex that all of humankind does not provide sufficient degrees of freedom to determine its behavioral effects.

Well yeah, to me, that's a way to say that just using the perceptions of "humankind" for research isn't the best way to analyse the brain's workings... :shrug:



Based on dumb comments like these that completely miss the mark, are bereft of truth, add absolutely no value to my life, and, in fact, detract from my life by wasting the time I spent reading them when I could have been doing something more worthwhile.

Lol seriously, you're unable to put together a proper logical explanation why you think it's dumb etc etc.
 

LittleV

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Alright & thanks :)

I just had a quick look for now;

However, all this is not to say that scientific theories of personality are superior to the sediment of lay perceptions.

Hahaha lovely. This is why I always hated the Big5 stuff.

The final truth about the structure of personality is at best an asymptotic concept: For example, the genetic base is likely to be so complex that all of humankind does not provide sufficient degrees of freedom to determine its behavioral effects.

Well yeah, to me, that's a way to say that just using the perceptions of "humankind" for research isn't the best way to analyse the brain's workings... :shrug:

Yeah, personality research is one of the underdogs in psychology overall. It's all about social psychology.
 

infinite

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Yeah, personality research is one of the underdogs in psychology overall. There's always a small group at conferences. It's all about social... but personality/social neuroscience is making good progress.

You do psychology research?
 

LittleV

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You do psychology research?

Damnit... this is the second time I'm quoted before someone had seen my edited post... yet after I'd pressed 'save' to edit my post, lol. I'm currently in the process of determining which route/field to take/go into.
 

infinite

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When did you develop this flawed notion that you are entitled to a logical explanation from other people?

It's your only chance to prove that you actually got anything logical to support your emotional claims.

I'm honestly not too interested though, unless you do actually try to do that.


Damnit... this is the second time I'm quoted before someone had seen my edited post... yet after I'd pressed 'save' to edit my post, lol. I'm currently in the process of determining which route/field to take/go into.

Ah, and any ideas where you'd like to go, which field?
 

Zarathustra

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It's your only chance to prove that you actually got anything logical to support your emotional claims.

I'm honestly not too interested though, unless you do actually try to do that.

And what has led you to mistakenly believe that I actually care about doing this for you?
 

infinite

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And what has led you to mistakenly believe that I actually care about doing this for you?

I don't think I'm the only one who sees that you're not being that logical about these claims :p

But, as I said, I don't really care.

I'm done with the off topic.
 

Zarathustra

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I don't think I'm the only one who sees that you're not being that logical about these claims :p

It's all about the company you keep.

Unfortunately for you, having one of the dimmest bulbs on this board on your side is not really that impressive.

And, since you don't seem to be aware of it: sulfit, who is a hardcore Socionics guy, agrees with me on this matter.
 

Evo

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True.

But I think one can learn a bit about the actual types from both.

As I said before: the truth lies somewhere in between.

Wrt ESFPs/SEEs: consider the effect growing up in the communist Soviet Union vs free market America would have on what characteristics of the type manifest more prominently, and thus what is observed more readily in each environment (it's almost like typological epigenetics).

In the Soviet bloc, you're gunna see their hard-scrapping, cut-throat, try-to-get-by in this corrupt, under-producing society. Kind of a "how does an ESFP look when you throw them into a bleak, rigid environment, with strong social rules, and not much income or economic vibrancy".

Versus throwing them into a free-wheeling capitalistic society that encourages them to work hard and party harder. Where they can earn their paycheck, and then go blow it up their noses, or on whatever myriad sensorial pleasures they can find within their vicinity.

It's still the same core personality, it just must respond a bit differently to each environment.

And the stereotypes, observations, and descriptions (both profile and functional) will follow from those.

I have had a problem with comparing the two systems in the past. And pretty much stopped all together because the descriptions really didn't seem to line up to me.

But this reason really makes sense to me.

I know Azure's always said they were the same, but he never said why. So I couldn't just take that at face value.

But this is probably the most concrete explanation that someone could infer, that I've seen anyway.

Good stuff :)
 

infinite

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It's all about the company you keep.

Unfortunately for you, having one of the dimmest bulbs on this board on your side is not really that impressive.

And, since you don't seem to be aware of it: sulfit, who is a hardcore Socionics guy, agrees with me on this matter.

It's not like I care about who agrees with you.

As I said, this is enough off topic. If you have anything else to say on this matter, take it into private msg's instead of replying here.


I have had a problem with comparing the two systems in the past. And pretty much stopped all together because the descriptions really didn't seem to line up to me.

But this reason really makes sense to me.

I know Azure's always said they were the same, but he never said why. So I couldn't just take that at face value.

But this is probably the most concrete explanation that someone could infer, that I've seen anyway.

Good stuff :)

Yeah sure it matters what environment one grows up in. The descriptions won't ever line up perfectly because the system(s) behind it isn't (aren't) that great to explain every little thing about you.
 
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