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Thread: The beta quadra

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    sulfit, there's an enormous difference between attacking a system you've concluded is flawed...and solely as a consequence of that doubt the intellect of that system's practitioners (<-which literally happens all the time...everyday...to everyone. Ask any tarot card reader or acupuncturist or Christian or vegan or...) and attacking an individual's character. Perhaps it would be best if you were to separate your ego from socionics...so that you are in a position to present its concepts without becoming defensive and emotional about it.
    I totally agree.


    Here's why I want to understand this...
    I believe language...the words we make use of...profoundly shape our perceptions of reality. And so when I take a look at the words being used in this thread to define my type...how surprised do you think I am right now that the one member/person I know that is a true socionics buff ( @Azure Flame )...has littered the internet with his hatred of NFPs? Not surprised at all...this all makes sense to me now.

    Please tell me how Te and Ti are defined. Thank you.
    This was pretty good on Ti/Te:

    The formal definitions are these:

    Ti = External Statics of Fields i.e. truths, axioms, laws.

    Te = External Dynamics of Objects i.e. methods, processes, mechanisms.


    (from a post of @edchidna1000)

  2. #162
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    I totally agree.




    This was pretty good on Ti/Te:

    The formal definitions are these:

    Ti = External Statics of Fields i.e. truths, axioms, laws.

    Te = External Dynamics of Objects i.e. methods, processes, mechanisms.


    (from a post of @edchidna1000)

    Thank you so much infinity... I very much appreciate you taking the time to answer this for me.

    I should have been more specific though in anticipation of someone other than sulfit stepping in to answer... and so if it's not too late... In addition to the socionics definitions of Te and Ti would you be willing to provide commentary on this quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    That Fe is more objective and mature than Fi when it comes to forming relationships and character judgments...
    ^^is this your understanding of Fe and Fi as well? And if so would this same understanding be applicable to Te and Ti?

    And finally, if Ne is understood as naive and childlike... and Fi is merely Fe's under-developed counterpart...do you believe it is possible for someone to develop a negative bias towards NFPs if they were especially immersed in the concepts of this system?

    That's all I want to understand...and thank you again.

  3. #163
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    I've seen a couple INFp's act that way also, strangely enough. A lot more cursewords, aggressive ad-hominem attacks, etc. - not that I consider it to be a problem, per se (it can often add a more genuine, spontaneous feel to the interactions that take place), but it's interesting to observe.
    I have seen that as well though only on an MBTI site with a socionics sub forum; I think it might have something to do with the cross over. The IEI is a pretty feminine type compared to JCFs more gender neutral stance, not to mention that it loses its intellectual nature. What is an IEI left to do but to try to be a tough guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I should have been more specific though in anticipation of someone other than sulfit stepping in to answer... and so if it's not too late... In addition to the socionics definitions of Te and Ti would you be willing to provide commentary on this quote:
    I presume by this you are opening the floor to any one able to offer an explanation? If not I hope you will not mind the intrusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^is this your understanding of Fe and Fi as well? And if so would this same understanding be applicable to Te and Ti?
    Yes and sort of for the second part. The Ti Te relationship would keep the same principle but adhere to their respective criteria. For example it could look like this:

    Te is more objective and mature than Ti when it comes to forming reasoning and analytical judgements.

    I will explain this in greater detail soon but first there are two important things to remember about socionics before I explain. Firstly socionics is meant to be an observational science; most parts of socionics revolve around a “objective” observers analysis. Secondly most of the socionics you can read in English is machine translated, and often seems to use odd word choices.

    For instance what if I changed the word mature with all its shades of meaning for realist? If I was to say that Fe is a realist compared too Fi idealism? Now from the outside perspective watching a Fi and Fe user interact, would you not conclude that the individual intent on pragmatically maintaining group cohesion was the more mature one? That is not to say that Fi idealism does not have its time and place. Yes you can play the same scenario with Te and Ti.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    And finally, if Ne is understood as naive and childlike... and Fi is merely Fe's under-developed counterpart...do you believe it is possible for someone to develop a negative bias towards NFPs if they were especially immersed in the concepts of this system?

    That's all I want to understand...and thank you again.
    Firstly I am going to take a wild guess and say this individual you are thinking of is a STP of some stripe? The answer is yes it is extremely common. The reasons for this are multitude; I’ll put it in bullet points so it doesn’t look so messy:

    • socionics is an actual branch of Russian science, it has somewhere in the realm of two thousand thesis’s; which means that its stereotypes make MBTI JCFs look minuscule and wafer thin by comparison.

    • Not all Quadra’s or functions are valued equally; the majority of socionics experts are reportedly male Alpha and Gamma NTs. So the other two Quadra’s and the functions that are considered feminine Fi and Si and to a lesser degree Fe are held in mixed regard, and those attitudes are played out online.

    • Unfortunately Deltas hold the stereotype of being the SJs of the socionics world; I believe they go so far as to lay monotheistic religion and all its holy wars and massacres at Deltas feet. Luckily Betas take up the mantle of pre-Christian tribal barbarism so you get share in all that delightful horror.

    • Lastly this one is directly related to your presumably STP individual. NFPs are supposed to be their relationship of conflict the hardest relationship to form and maintain. There top functions are your weaknesses and vice versa, it’s a relationship that when viewed from the observer position is one in which miscommunication is paramount nothing you say or do is ever right. But in some socionics circles it’s anybody you hate; which gives you free reign to bash them as much as you please.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I have seen that as well though only on an MBTI site with a socionics sub forum; I think it might have something to do with the cross over. The IEI is a pretty feminine type compared to JCFs more gender neutral stance, not to mention that it loses its intellectual nature. What is an IEI left to do but to try to be a tough guy?
    The IEI-Ni is described as pretty intellectual. "They can fulfill the functions of an abstract thinker" (Wikisocion)


    Lastly this one is directly related to your presumably STP individual. NFPs are supposed to be their relationship of conflict the hardest relationship to form and maintain. There top functions are your weaknesses and vice versa, it’s a relationship that when viewed from the observer position is one in which miscommunication is paramount nothing you say or do is ever right. But in some socionics circles it’s anybody you hate; which gives you free reign to bash them as much as you please.
    Don't mix MBTI with socionics.

    Socionics actually says the duals of STp's are NFp's. Because of the match of irrationality. ESTp&INFp and ISTp&ENFp. The conflictor will be the opposite on the rational/irrational dichotomy, STp conflictors are NFj's.

    Oh yeah and it's stupid to label everyone you hate as your conflictor.

  5. #165
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I presume by this you are opening the floor to any one able to offer an explanation? If not I hope you will not mind the intrusion.

    I was, and thank you for it. And thank you for being childlike enough to recognize I wanted one prior to the close of the decade haha I'm kidding. This is exactly what I was looking for and I appreciate it so much. It's good to cross paths with you again Dr.


    Yes and sort of for the second part. The Ti Te relationship would keep the same principle but adhere to their respective criteria. For example it could look like this:

    Te is more objective and mature than Ti when it comes to forming reasoning and analytical judgements.

    I will explain this in greater detail soon but first there are two important things to remember about socionics before I explain. Firstly socionics is meant to be an observational science; most parts of socionics revolve around a “objective” observers analysis. Secondly most of the socionics you can read in English is machine translated, and often seems to use odd word choices.

    For instance what if I changed the word mature with all its shades of meaning for realist? If I was to say that Fe is a realist compared too Fi idealism? Now from the outside perspective watching a Fi and Fe user interact, would you not conclude that the individual intent on pragmatically maintaining group cohesion was the more mature one? That is not to say that Fi idealism does not have its time and place. Yes you can play the same scenario with Te and Ti.

    I'm not sure where and when you will be expanding on your definitions but I would like it very much if you were to mention me when you do so I do not miss them. This all makes sense. And yes, I'm no stranger to this notion of Je/Ji objective/subjective realist/idealist. <-These descriptives are certainly far easier to swallow than mature/still drooling and in diapers. It's that damn Russian language you say? How are we supposed to translate words properly when they are each made up of 57 constonants? Impossible. Pfft.




    Firstly I am going to take a wild guess and say this individual you are thinking of is a STP of some stripe?

    I've been studying the naive, childlike function and intelligence...as there's been a bit of a stir in the social science community in this regard (stemming from research on ADD & ADHD.) ^^And what you just did there... it basically encapsulates everything they're now saying about us. Just how fast our minds work... how we instantly arrive at accurate conclusions... You've got the gift my friend haha... (totally making myself laugh here) Childlike doms = awesome.


    • socionics is an actual branch of Russian science, it has somewhere in the realm of two thousand thesis’s; which means that its stereotypes make MBTI JCFs look minuscule and wafer thin by comparison.

    • Not all Quadra’s or functions are valued equally; the majority of socionics experts are reportedly male Alpha and Gamma NTs. So the other two Quadra’s and the functions that are considered feminine Fi and Si and to a lesser degree Fe are held in mixed regard, and those attitudes are played out online.

    • Unfortunately Deltas hold the stereotype of being the SJs of the socionics world; I believe they go so far as to lay monotheistic religion and all its holy wars and massacres at Deltas feet. Luckily Betas take up the mantle of pre-Christian tribal barbarism so you get share in all that delightful horror.

    • Lastly this one is directly related to your presumably STP individual. NFPs are supposed to be their relationship of conflict the hardest relationship to form and maintain. There top functions are your weaknesses and vice versa, it’s a relationship that when viewed from the observer position is one in which miscommunication is paramount nothing you say or do is ever right. But in some socionics circles it’s anybody you hate; which gives you free reign to bash them as much as you please.

    Okay that bolded part... that is one of the COOLEST things I've ever read...(and just when I was getting ready to dismiss this as shit too.) Now I'm hooked. Now I'm getting a bloody-looking tattoo that says *delta quadra* in stylized Crusader script. I feel very good about this system now.

    As for the STP...yah haha...a couple nights ago I was like OOOOOOOOoooooOOHHHHHH I get it.


    You are amazing ENP brother. Thank you so much.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    The brain patterns stuff, is that Nardi or some other research?
    DeYoung. He has a lot of work you can look up.


    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    And what should happen after I envision it?
    It's the practice that can allow you to better decide whether an action would be worth its consequences in the long run... it also depends on the situation and, many times, you'd need to decide within milliseconds. It can also help you figure out whether you're a Beta or Gamma; my Se (dom/aux) friends/acquaintances had this problem rather early in life (mainly the Se-doms). I had almost the opposite, so we've always been warm toward one another (even when they'd make fun of me when we'd hang out, lol, in which I'd return the favor). If you'd want to be able to console others and/or bring order (productive communication) to a group of people as a goal... you just might be a Beta. Even my ESTP ex (who knows how to offend)... wanted to learn how to build better rapports (in which he was generally already good at). Most people think he's cool... but he can be very blunt at times. When my ISTP friend wasn't getting along/talking with his INTJ roommate... my ex commented, "Why not just say something? Why would anyone want to be in such an awkward situation..?" In his eyes... people are just people and there's no need to make the situation more miserable. I'd agree with this more often than not... but not when I'd just want alone time, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Do you personally have a problem with conflicts/fights in general?
    Not a personal problem in that I wouldn't be able to stand it or believe that it'd be necessary at times (I'm rather quick on my feet when my Fe would automatically push out my Se during heated moments); I think everybody has their own world... and in respecting their boundaries (as a whole), I try to uphold some ways of doing things that I believe others should find agreement upon. To be a functional community... I also believe in constantly changing/improving human frameworks by being open to new information (Ni). That's where the 'p' comes from; we're 'open' to new, connective information... but act on things/decide with an extraverted-judging function (Fe) in the end. You wouldn't see the 'Ni' unless we'd explain ourselves or you'd observe us in active/intensive contemplation (when Ti might play an additional role without us being too aware).


    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Careful in what ways?
    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    I agree, I certainly wouldn't use typology as I would a system based in hard science.
    Careful in how I'd use it (even if it was a hard science). We'd all have our own way of 'stereotyping'; I try to make sure that my impressions would be mainly of the situation/person (especially in the beginning)... and not form impressions stemming primarily from a system's perspective. Natural chemistry can be pretty important.

  7. #167
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    [*]Unfortunately Deltas hold the stereotype of being the SJs of the socionics world; I believe they go so far as to lay monotheistic religion and all its holy wars and massacres at Deltas feet. Luckily Betas take up the mantle of pre-Christian tribal barbarism so you get share in all that delightful horror.
    I've actually seen the opposite. I'd say Beta is Christianity at the height of the Papacy and Delta is more like the Amish.
    Founder and President of World Socionics Society
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/worldsocionicssociety

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Then again I can’t say much, there are all those ILEs who sit there pining for a SEI to blow their nose and wipe their backside for them; why they tell what they think are utterly hysterical jokes.
    Wow, sounds exactly like my close ENTP friend who's married to an ISFJ...

    What a coincidence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Wow why is it that MBTI forums with subforums always have the same tedious debate?
    Because idiots with half a brain keep trying to perpetuate the idea that the systems are not compatible.

    And newbs come in, who don't even understand one system yet, and don't know what to make of the different notation systems, let alone the differences in the function and profile descriptions, based on Socionic's different perspective from MBTI on what makes a thing "Jish" and what makes a thing "Pish" (i.e., Socionics: it's a Judging/Rational function, vs MBTI: it's an Extroverted Judging/Rational function that causes a function/function-user to be "Jish"), and pick a Socionics type based on whether it sounds "Jish" like they perceive themselves to be, or "Pish" like they perceive themselves to be, not realizing that the truth is actually more complicated than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    May I suggest a compromise so that we don’t have the same argument for the next year in every thread?

    Firstly use the socionics connotation ILE LII etc so as to not confuse the new people who stumble in here and incidentally start World War 3.
    Meh.

    I think using the little 'j' and little 'p' is good enough.

    Have to unravel them anyway according to what functions they indicate.

    And the n00bs need to learn the difference between ISTp (SiTe) and ISTP (TiSe).

    I'm not against using the SLI or LSI notation, but, hell, why not just put the functions in there?

    Another option would be to just go full bore, and put SLI (ISTp; ISTJ; SiTe), or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Secondly perhaps start a thread dedicated to this truly scintillating question; perhaps with links to work done by socionics experts?
    I was already planning on doing the former.

    Someone else would have to take up the bulwark of the latter part of it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    The IEI-Ni is described as pretty intellectual. "They can fulfill the functions of an abstract thinker" (Wikisocion)
    Wow...

    Just like INFJs...

    What a coincidence...

    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Don't mix MBTI with socionics.
    Don't issue commands to people as if you have some authority to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I have seen that as well though only on an MBTI site with a socionics sub forum; I think it might have something to do with the cross over. The IEI is a pretty feminine type compared to JCFs more gender neutral stance...
    How do you find INFJs to be gender neutral?

    They have the most skewed (in the women's direction) male : female ratio of all the types (~ 1 male : 5 females).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    ...not to mention that it loses its intellectual nature.
    That's odd.

    They're considered the most analytical (NT-like) of all the NFs in JCF/MBTI.

    The NiTi combination can lead them to be extremely intellectual, and a lot of philosophers have been INFJs.

    Whatshisname posted something supposedly contradicting what you've said here, though.

    Possibly the common "same scene + different painters = different painting" issue.

    Maybe you've read certain profiles that deemphasize their intellectual side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    What is an IEI left to do but to try to be a tough guy?
    You actually see it from some NFJs (one INFJ enneagram 3 in particular) on here.

    They clearly are dipping into their inferior/shadow and trying to act like STPs.


    **************************************************

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I presume by this you are opening the floor to any one able to offer an explanation? If not I hope you will not mind the intrusion.
    I actually meant to start here, but decided to include the above as well.

    Anyway, to preface, thanks for your thoughtful post.

    I've discussed Socionics with a good number of people strong in Socionics in order to try to figure out the whole "divide", including with one of the members in here, but you seem like you might be coming from the strongest position of all of them.

    I feel we could actually make some headway here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Yes and sort of for the second part. The Ti Te relationship would keep the same principle but adhere to their respective criteria. For example it could look like this:

    Te is more objective and mature than Ti when it comes to forming reasoning and analytical judgements.

    I will explain this in greater detail soon but first there are two important things to remember about socionics before I explain.
    I know you're gunna expand on this further, but, let me say, as an INTJ, and an ILI, and someone who for years decried how annoying INTPs/ISTPs/Ti users can be, and who clearly prefers Te, even I am hesitant to embrace language calling one function more "mature" than another. I get what you mean when you expand below, but I just don't think it's good wording. As I said in this post, maturity is an issue of personal character, not of what functions one uses. There are mature Fe users, mature Fi users, mature Te users, and mature Ti users; and immature users of all of them as well. And then there's even maturity in certain contexts, and at certain times. It's just too complicated and value-laden a word to use in this context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Firstly socionics is meant to be an observational science; most parts of socionics revolve around a “objective” observers analysis.
    I'm sorry, I love typology, but I don't care what they like to consider themselves, whenever I hear them (and they do it often) emphasize the "objectivity" and "science" of it, I can't help but laugh. Not saying it can't reach certain levels of objectivity -- it can -- but, I dunno, it reminds me of a Russian Dr. Strangelove or something. It's just claiming a mantle that it doesn't actually possess (at least not constantly and consistently).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Secondly most of the socionics you can read in English is machine translated, and often seems to use odd word choices.
    Oy vey...

    Don't get me started...

    Reading those translations is like pulling teeth...

    I'll read them, to try to gain what insight I can, and a few of them are very good, but many are just awful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    For instance what if I changed the word mature with all its shades of meaning for realist? If I was to say that Fe is a realist compared too Fi idealism?
    That is a much more acceptable word, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Now from the outside perspective watching a Fi and Fe user interact, would you not conclude that the individual intent on pragmatically maintaining group cohesion was the more mature one?
    Haha... no.

    Why admit that "realist" is the better word, and then switch back to "mature"?

    And only someone who inherently has a strong valuation for group cohesion would really find it that sensible to do so.

    To those of us who value FiTe > FeTi, maintenance of group cohesion is not necessarily considered that great a thing in and of itself.

    Frankly, I often think maintenance of group cohesion can lead to awful results, and is extremely immature.

    It's like a bunch of lemmings telling one another just to stick together as they run themselves over a cliff.

    Nothing mature about that.

    If they were concerned more with the objective truth and facts of the situation (Te, Se), as opposed to group cohesion, they would see what is about to happen and stop.

    I really just don't think "maturity" is at all a proper word here.

    It screams of bias towards whatever function one is calling mature, and bias against whatever function one is calling immature.

    You've mentioned wars about Socionics vs MBTI/JCF on forums: trust me, at least on this forum, such discussions pale in comparison to the true wars we have, which are between Fe-valuers and Fi-valuers. Those discussions are where the real blood gets spilled here. And hence the reason I made this post in the first place. @sulfit made a blatant Fe-favoring post, using extremely value-laden, flat out divisive language, and tried to pass it off as if it was objective truth. And the fact that he doesn't even realize this, and how problematic it is, is, frankly, troubling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    That is not to say that Fi idealism does not have its time and place.
    Yes you can play the same scenario with Te and Ti.
    True.

    And fair enough.

    There are times when Fi and Ti both are not the best perspectives/functions for the moment.

    But that still doesn't mean they should simply be labeled "immature".

    Idealistic vs realistic?

    Definitely better.

    There's still a little value-ladenness to that terminology, as both Fi and Ti can be realistic, when used well, at the right times, and in the right situations (which can be often, if the particular user is wise and aware).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    [*]socionics is an actual branch of Russian science, it has somewhere in the realm of two thousand thesis’s; which means that its stereotypes make MBTI JCFs look minuscule and wafer thin by comparison.
    How so?

    There are lots of studies about MBTI.

    Frankly, I don't know the number off the top of my head, but I'd guess it'd be over 2000.

    Many of them, tho, are likely critiquing it as unempirical, not as good as the BIG 5, etc.

    I'm not sure if you're being pejorative here to Socionics, tho, or not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    [*]Not all Quadra’s or functions are valued equally; the majority of socionics experts are reportedly male Alpha and Gamma NTs. So the other two Quadra’s and the functions that are considered feminine Fi and Si and to a lesser degree Fe are held in mixed regard, and those attitudes are played out online.
    What crap.

    How do they even have the audacity to lay claim to being "objective" and "scientific"?

    From what I've heard, the bias is even more Alpha/NTP than anything else.

    And, frankly, that's how a lot of it looks to me.

    It seems very Ti/subjective logic.

    It's like "here's my personal opinion passed off as objective fact".

    Te users would at least put more of a premium on their claims actually having to match up with reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    [*]Unfortunately Deltas hold the stereotype of being the SJs of the socionics world; I believe they go so far as to lay monotheistic religion and all its holy wars and massacres at Deltas feet. Luckily Betas take up the mantle of pre-Christian tribal barbarism so you get share in all that delightful horror.
    And this just speaks to stupidity, not only of the stereotypes, but of the Quadra system as a whole.

    I've explained this somewhere on here before, but to group the 16 types into 4 types, based on them sharing, in MBTI, the same four "regular" functions, which is what Socionics indeed does, can be interesting in certain regards, but can become highly problematic if one loses sight of the fact that two of the types are going to be largely opposite of the other two types, especially in so much as individuals of their respective types are still suppressing their inferior/shadow functions (tertiary and inferior), which, for the most part, all of us do, to some extent, even if we have developed/matured to a significant degree (granted, letting go of that suppression does happen, and is a sign of maturity, but many individuals never even reach that point, or only do so to a limited extent). If that's the case, and let's say 90% (and I understand this is just an assumption, is not empirically validated, but just go with it for a moment) of people largely suppress their inferior functions, then it's a stupid conceptual maneuver to group these types together and describe them as if they share tons of similarities. Yes, they might share certain similarities, in certain regards, and often, and this is important, in highly subconscious ways, but it does not mean that they are, in an simple sense of the term, "like" one another.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    That Fe is more objective and mature than Fi when it comes to forming relationships and character judgments is being discussed on 16types as we speak: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1011788 Sorry if it tickles your bloated ego the wrong way. It requires some humility to accept which is clearly not within your reach.
    Can you post a link to that forum another 1,967 times? I think I need to see it more often. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Can you post a link to that forum another 1,967 times? I think I need to see it more often. Thanks.
    The sad thing is... that's the only reliable place where you can get English socionics material other than wikisocion, and Rick DeLong's website/blog.

    Most of the stuff there's already consolidated, so I can see why he'd post that link a million times.
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    Last Post: 02-25-2012, 03:30 AM

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