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  1. #31
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    D-2, IEI
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Showing, once again, as I have said all along, that the only reason some introverts get the wrong Socionics type, relative to their MBTI type, is because Socionics considers the dominant function as the determining factor in whether someone is "Jish" ("orderly, structured, stable") or "Pish" ("disorganized, adaptive, depends on mood"), whereas MBTI considers the first extroverted function as the determining factor on this matter.

    (...)

    Notice: the bolded is the only part that's different, and it all pertains to Jish vs Pish qualities.

    Now, people can have their opinion on whether being FiNe causes you to be Jish or Pish and NiFe causes you to be Jish or Pish -- frankly, I think it's somewhere in the middle (i.e., that the introverts might be either one, or kinda both, just one way in certain ways, but the other way in other ways) -- but there is no questioning that this test shows exactly what I have been saying all along: that one should have the same cognitive functions in both systems, but one system simply emphasizes Jish qualities for individuals whose dominant function is a Judging function and Pish qualities for introverts whose dominant function is a Perceiving function (Socionics), while the other emphasizes Jish qualities for individuals whose first extroverted function is a judging function and Pish qualities for individuals whose first extroverted function is a Perceiving function (MBTI).

    There is no debate. This is fact.
    No. The cognitive functions are not the same in these systems. This test here isn't even testing for functions, just dichotomy stuff, so how does it prove anything about functions. Your conclusion is not fact. What's fact here is not new: that socionics assigns j/p based on leading function.

    And that thing about people having opinions on how much J or P FiNe is etc, opinion seriously? Measure it, don't waste time on mental masturbation.

    PS. I did not have time to read the other posts yet so apologies if someone else already pointed out all this.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    No. The cognitive functions are not the same in these systems. This test here isn't even testing for functions, just dichotomy stuff, so how does it prove anything about functions. Your conclusion is not fact. What's fact here is not new: that socionics assigns j/p based on leading function.

    And that thing about people having opinions on how much J or P FiNe is etc, opinion seriously? Measure it, don't waste time on mental masturbation.

    PS. I did not have time to read the other posts yet so apologies if someone else already pointed out all this.
    Actually, dichotomies and functions aren't as separate as you seem to suggest. In this test, the first question measures the dichotomies in terms of F/T and N/S, and the second the orientation of those dichotomies.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    No. The cognitive functions are not the same in these systems. This test here isn't even testing for functions, just dichotomy stuff, so how does it prove anything about functions. Your conclusion is not fact. What's fact here is not new: that socionics assigns j/p based on leading function.

    And that thing about people having opinions on how much J or P FiNe is etc, opinion seriously? Measure it, don't waste time on mental masturbation.

    PS. I did not have time to read the other posts yet so apologies if someone else already pointed out all this.
    You clearly didn't understand my post, and don't know what you're talking about.

  5. #35
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    It's extremely close between C1 and D1. Which means TeNi or FeNi, so effectively, JeNi.

    Not surprised.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
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    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    D or C 2 - NiFe or NiTe


    Choosing a letter group was hard. Feeling was sounding like Fe, as usual... Perhaps replace tactful with sensitive & get rid of knowing how people feel about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Showing, once again, as I have said all along, that the only reason some introverts get the wrong Socionics type, relative to their MBTI type, is because Socionics considers the dominant function as the determining factor in whether someone is "Jish" ("orderly, structured, stable") or "Pish" ("disorganized, adaptive, depends on mood"), whereas MBTI considers the first extroverted function as the determining factor on this matter.



    Notice: the bolded is the only part that's different, and it all pertains to Jish vs Pish qualities.

    Now, people can have their opinion on whether being FiNe causes you to be Jish or Pish and NiFe causes you to be Jish or Pish -- frankly, I think it's somewhere in the middle (i.e., that the introverts might be either one, or kinda both, just one way in certain ways, but the other way in other ways) -- but there is no questioning that this test shows exactly what I have been saying all along: that one should have the same cognitive functions in both systems, but one system simply emphasizes Jish qualities for individuals whose dominant function is a Judging function and Pish qualities for individuals whose dominant function is a Perceiving function (Socionics), while the other emphasizes Jish qualities for individuals whose first extroverted function is a judging function and Pish qualities for individuals whose first extroverted function is a Perceiving function (MBTI).

    There is no debate. This is fact.
    That's a big problem though! This is a personality/psychology theory after all....
    MBTI gets it right because J/P behavior is as much about the introverted function as the extroverted function, IMO. J/P behavior is the result of a whole mindset. The inferior, opposing function for a Ji-dom is Je, so to make Ji sound like Je is bizarre.

    The Fi description is such utter crap, I can't even begin to identify it. It taints every other aspect of the theory for me, which is a shame because it goes into intertype dynamics which MBTI hardly touches.

    I should be EII, but unfortunately, they decided to make Fi sound like Fe in an ISFJ, so that EII descriptions read like ISFJ e9w1. This leads socionics "experts" to type me as a slightly misanthropic ENFp or INFp, as it sounds the most e4.

    The concept of socionics is interesting, but its framework is filled with crap. Well-organized crap is still crap.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #37
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    As a J-ish P (in MBTI), the uncertainty of the second set of choices didn't bother me much. I know that I'm superficially adaptive and accommodating and internally stern but that might be a difficult distinction to make or figure out, I guess.
    Why don't they word it that way? Or rather, I'd prefer "consistency in thought/feeling" or JH Van Der Hoop's much more insightful comment on Ji-dom:
    Just as with the introvert of thinking-type, we find [in the Fi type], too, a marked contrast between inner security on the one hand, and uncertainty in external behavior on the other.

    Instead they talk about being organized & following rules & being sequential.... I'm not any of that internally either. Rational doesn't mean sequential or linear.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    D or C 2 - NiFe or NiTe


    Choosing a letter group was hard. Feeling was sounding like Fe, as usual... Perhaps replace tactful with sensitive & get rid of knowing how people feel about you.



    That's a big problem though! This is a personality/psychology theory after all....
    MBTI gets it right because J/P behavior is as much about the introverted function as the extroverted function, IMO. J/P behavior is the result of a whole mindset. The inferior, opposing function for a Ji-dom is Je, so to make Ji sound like Je is bizarre.

    The Fi description is such utter crap, I can't even begin to identify it. It taints every other aspect of the theory for me, which is a shame because it goes into intertype dynamics which MBTI hardly touches.

    I should be EII, but unfortunately, they decided to make Fi sound like Fe in an ISFJ, so that EII descriptions read like ISFJ e9w1. This leads socionics "experts" to type me as a slightly misanthropic ENFp or INFp, as it sounds the most e4.

    The concept of socionics is interesting, but its framework is filled with crap. Well-organized crap is still crap.
    Well, it bears repeating that socionics in its most well known form was developed by an ENTp, whose vulnerable function is Fi (followed by Se). So it's not all that surprising that the descriptions of those functions specifically are a little off.

    They aren't all crap though, I would say. A lot of socionics Fi makes sense to me and doesn't feel like Fe, to be honest. A large part of my people skills lies in knowing how I feel about people, having a decent idea of how they feel about me and the confidence (if not necessarily the inclination) that I can manipulate the strength of the bond, either to bring them closer to me or push them away (I'm not discounting their own role in it by any means or saying it's always predictable, but I'm confident of being able to control things from my end).

    It's not an awareness of the other person in and of themselves but an idea of the relationship with that person, which is largely wrought by me and therefore more internal.

    Regarding EII and the "ISFJ doormat" thing, yeah, I think it's way overstated (especially in the Wikisocion descriptions) but I do think that a lot INFPs have a kind of unconscious urge towards comfort and nostalgia and tend to mirror behaviours they like and want to show love in the ways they appreciate. So there's a bit of an anxious people pleaser element in them, which likes to attend to people's physical comfort but isn't necessarily so great at it (or as great as a real ISFJ would be).

    Not saying this is true of all INFPs or of you in particular but I've noticed the tendency in quite a few.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Socionics information is often written in a confusing manner. It's like the guy who writes the descriptions has to clip out words he finds in a psychology magazine, and can never quite find the right ones.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why don't they word it that way? Or rather, I'd prefer "consistency in thought/feeling" or JH Van Der Hoop's much more insightful comment on Ji-dom:
    Just as with the introvert of thinking-type, we find [in the Fi type], too, a marked contrast between inner security on the one hand, and uncertainty in external behavior on the other.

    Instead they talk about being organized & following rules & being sequential.... I'm not any of that internally either. Rational doesn't mean sequential or linear.
    I agree that the words they've chosen are less than ideal, yeah. But at the same time, I figured I got what they meant so I'm not too fussed about it.

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