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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Maybe not to you or me, but to a lot of people. Consider perceptions of who "wins" a Presidential debate.
    Meh... I guess your provocation didn't work on him anyway. :p

    Also... back to original topic?

  2. #52
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    In the studies they were given operational definitions so vagueness was not an issue. The problem was, operational definitions didn't behave as neat and didn't show correlations as neat as it would be expected by fans of function and type dynamics theory.

    Also, your way of talking about functions does not sound vague at all. It's all operational definitions, you seem to be equating functions with concrete traits. Those things are absolutely not hard to see in people. The advantage is that if you are willing to let go of your assumptions then such a concrete tangible approach will easily show you where the theory doesn't work out so well. So I am wondering, how come you haven't seen that, or have you, but you have explanations for all of it?
    It's not supposed to be down to specific behaviours. The specific behaviours are very much based on context and other variables that would need to be checked. Instead, it's a question of seeing the person's attitude behind the behaviours... why they are doing X etc. This is what gives you an insight into the IM element and this is something which you can see in people without being confused by the variation in the concrete behaviours. In the same way, different chimpanzees in different communities develop their own ways of doing things depending on the environment (some spear fish, some knock nuts against rocks), they are still the same species however.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    And then the question is, how does socionics functions and gender norms work together. E.g.; where does a socionics function end and where does the gender norm start?
    It depends on how we see gender norms... Wearing a dress is part of a gender norm but has nothing to do with Socionics. Being competitive and using aggressive tactics to get something of desire is very much Se but also associated with male gender norms. I think the reason why Se is associated with masculinity is due to the requirements of hunter gatherers to be Sensoric with an expansive mindset in the tough world before civilisation properly developed. I think one can see Se as necessary to the system without thinking of gender norms however.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Interesting, it would be even more interesting if you did your own study about whether this assumption is actually that correct.
    Yes, I plan to set up some experiments when I'm doing my PhD.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Also, how about creative function, I assume your addition is more about leading function showing?
    Leading function AND Demonstrative function. Communication and Movement styles look at the two strongest functions, not necessarily the most valued.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    You know, the way these things tend to turn out, I usually end up suspending judgement, meaning that it doesn't seem a very usable theory...
    That's the reasonable position to take until you are accustomed to seeing the distinctions after interpreting the motivations from everyday behaviour. Socionics is hard to use and easy to misuse until you really know what you're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes, I know that, my question was about however what deeper reason there would be for enneagram 1 overlap with IJ temperament. Enneagram after all is not about cognitive functions, so how come there would be this overlap? Have you ever thought about this?
    The two are separate systems of different origin, however it shows that both systems saw a certain pronounced quality of certain people that was not present in others, using it as a method of distinction. It suggests that the quality really exists and isn't just fabricated and projected.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I didn't imply he was lying. I implied the personality may be more variable than assumed.
    It isn't so variable that his motivations aren't distinctly Ti-driven. He's a very solid character in this respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well glad you have such a consistent worldview that most of your stuff can be categorized under one single approach. I'm not quite sure that everyone is this consistent.
    With the people I know, it is. For instance, everything my EIE friend does with purpose is to affect the way people around him feel. Everything my LSE father does with purpose is to make something or someone function more productively.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Alright but why is physical force always related to Se? Not only that, but why is Se also always being equated with physical force here? (That is, if something's Se, then it's physical force as well) Before answering this - somewhat rhetorical question - see below what I really mean by it.

    The world is indeed heading in a direction where having knowledge/information/intelligence will achieve more than willingness to enter physical fights. Calling this anti-Se is another thing entirely though. This isn't an explanation for anything at all. Reducing Se (as a cognitive function) to the concrete trait of violence does simplify the theory to the extent that it shows that it doesn't actually explain anything, what's left is just a descriptive approach.
    Se really isn't synonymous with violence unless you have a very broad definition of violence. The information itself is simply External Statics of Objects i.e. the things that are physically there. The metabolising of that information amounts to navigating and exploiting your physical space.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes of course almost anyone should be able to be emotionally animated at times. Now, if the feeling is always genuine, then it isn't really Fe, is it? Then why equate Fe with emotional animation? If you decide not to equate Fe with it but make the definition depend on the source of the emotionality (genuine expression of own feelings or just adjusting group atmosphere), then how do you determine just by looking if it's genuine for the person or not? Dangerous grounds again.
    Well, it's still Fe. It's just Fe that's so weak that there's no control of it and so unvalued that it only comes about accidentally. So it's not a case of determining whether it is Fe or not. It is. Instead it's a question of determining the strength and valuing of that Fe, so that we can work out what function the IM element is playing in that person's psyche. Is the person passively reacting to someone's joke? Is the person talking persuasively and affecting someone else's emotional state? Is the person reacting poorly with the general emotional atmosphere? These are the questions we ask after seeing Fe.
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  3. #53
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Socionics is far more elaborate and makes more sense than MBTI in its more defined parts. MBTI is a tad more open ended and is not held down by any properly grounded psychological research in the present.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    It's not supposed to be down to specific behaviours. The specific behaviours are very much based on context and other variables that would need to be checked. Instead, it's a question of seeing the person's attitude behind the behaviours... why they are doing X etc. This is what gives you an insight into the IM element and this is something which you can see in people without being confused by the variation in the concrete behaviours. In the same way, different chimpanzees in different communities develop their own ways of doing things depending on the environment (some spear fish, some knock nuts against rocks), they are still the same species however.
    Okay. I just see it all the time, tying functions down to specific shit.


    It depends on how we see gender norms... Wearing a dress is part of a gender norm but has nothing to do with Socionics. Being competitive and using aggressive tactics to get something of desire is very much Se but also associated with male gender norms. I think the reason why Se is associated with masculinity is due to the requirements of hunter gatherers to be Sensoric with an expansive mindset in the tough world before civilisation properly developed. I think one can see Se as necessary to the system without thinking of gender norms however.
    What about a male EII?


    Yes, I plan to set up some experiments when I'm doing my PhD.
    Cool.


    Leading function AND Demonstrative function. Communication and Movement styles look at the two strongest functions, not necessarily the most valued.
    Ahh, okay.

    So e.g. an ESI would have Si style movements?


    The two are separate systems of different origin, however it shows that both systems saw a certain pronounced quality of certain people that was not present in others, using it as a method of distinction. It suggests that the quality really exists and isn't just fabricated and projected.
    Yes it's good for validation of concepts in that sense. My problem is more with offering different explanations apparently for the same thing. What do you think about that?


    It isn't so variable that his motivations aren't distinctly Ti-driven. He's a very solid character in this respect.
    He's a character in a film series so of course it's just a black and white one. I am talking about real life characters.


    With the people I know, it is. For instance, everything my EIE friend does with purpose is to affect the way people around him feel. Everything my LSE father does with purpose is to make something or someone function more productively.
    Alright, I'll be curious to see if you can find my default leading motivation/purpose. (In your other thread)


    Se really isn't synonymous with violence unless you have a very broad definition of violence. The information itself is simply External Statics of Objects i.e. the things that are physically there. The metabolising of that information amounts to navigating and exploiting your physical space.
    This is perfectly okay, but your original history related explanation seemed more one-sided about Se and about just replacing some words with other symbols (replacing the word "violence" with the symbol "Se") instead of digging deeper to find real explanations. Perhaps only because it was summed up in only a few lines but it really came off that way. This is the sort of stuff I take issue with both in MBTI and Socionics.


    Well, it's still Fe. It's just Fe that's so weak that there's no control of it and so unvalued that it only comes about accidentally. So it's not a case of determining whether it is Fe or not. It is. Instead it's a question of determining the strength and valuing of that Fe, so that we can work out what function the IM element is playing in that person's psyche. Is the person passively reacting to someone's joke? Is the person talking persuasively and affecting someone else's emotional state? Is the person reacting poorly with the general emotional atmosphere? These are the questions we ask after seeing Fe.
    Hmm okay, that's reasonable I do still have some more general issues as explained above.

  5. #55
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    What about a male EII?
    That's why there's often a priestly caste.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    So e.g. an ESI would have Si style movements?
    Yes, Controlled movement.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes it's good for validation of concepts in that sense. My problem is more with offering different explanations apparently for the same thing. What do you think about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well that does lead to the issue of which explanation is correct. I think Socionics gives a better demonstration of why things are the way they are than the strange leaps that Enneagram takes from a basic fear to the behaviour of a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    He's a character in a film series so of course it's just a black and white one. I am talking about real life characters.
    Vladimir Putin: "You must obey the law, always, not only when they grab you by your special place."

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Alright, I'll be curious to see if you can find my default leading motivation/purpose. (In your other thread)
    Funnily enough, that was the one thing I couldn't determine... It's Extroverted and Irrational though, either Ne or Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    This is perfectly okay, but your original history related explanation seemed more one-sided about Se and about just replacing some words with other symbols (replacing the word "violence" with the symbol "Se") instead of digging deeper to find real explanations. Perhaps only because it was summed up in only a few lines but it really came off that way. This is the sort of stuff I take issue with both in MBTI and Socionics.
    Yes, it's hard to give an example of Se like that that sums up its entire meaning rather than a particular approach.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    That's why there's often a priestly caste.
    Ehh :P


    Yes, Controlled movement.
    Ahh ok. Trying to understand your theory a bit more, what's the difference between confident (Se) and controlled (Si) movement?


    Vladimir Putin: "You must obey the law, always, not only when they grab you by your special place."
    Did you see him beyond public appearances? Of course I'm not debating that someone quite like e.g. stereotypical LSI can exist. What I'm debating is if this is that common.


    Funnily enough, that was the one thing I couldn't determine... It's Extroverted and Irrational though, either Ne or Se.
    Ahahaha! :P

    Btw thanks and I replied to it now, I don't know if it helps you decide lol. I'll be curious to see though!


    Yes, it's hard to give an example of Se like that that sums up its entire meaning rather than a particular approach.
    True, that. I did also take issue with using socionics symbols in place of words in that description of history of western memes, though. Oh well this leads far and I need to go right now. :/

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