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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    The Beta comment was a joke about how guys read that horrid Beskova portrait of male SLE and immediately start acting like jackasses. While IEI often use the socionics portraits to dismiss people on MBTI sites……. despite as far as I am aware socionics has always assumed a relatively equal population of all types; which would mean they should be welcoming people in with open arms.
    Those guys must be enneagram image types :P

    Yes some socionists assumed this relatively equal distribution of all types (is this what you meant?) but that was based on some really theoretical logic. I saw some study where they picked some people and counted the types. I don't know how representative that sample was but it was far from equal distribution of types.


    No, but that’s why retesting is so important.
    Yeah it is


    I probably should have clarified that, I cannot think of a way to empirically test a personality as a whole. I also hope that we will have tools in the future to do this.
    Too much agreeing here


    That is my mind set as well, though I’m always hopeful that my preconceptions will be overturned.
    Can you elaborate on the 2nd part of your sentence?

  2. #42
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    The reason you don’t see any points as it is becoming increasingly obvious to me; has to do with the fact you haven’t read in to socionics. At best scratched the surface; perhaps more time spent reading and less time critiquing is in order? Ignorance does make monkeys of men.
    I haven't read about socionics? Tell me, if you have read so much, do you know what your super-ego functions in socionics are?

    Also, I agree that VI is stupid.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #43
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Ah, right, sorry, I didn't know they still have that on the site.

    Well I read somewhere that they were phasing out the functions, introducing new sub factors instead. Probably because of how studies didn't manage to confirm 4-letter dichotomy correlating with the functions too well.
    Not too surprised. The cognitive functions are pretty vague and hard to see in people.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Heh, my point was about how it's mentioned in this theory that female aggressors are different... okay and why? Explanation outside Socionics, I guess.

    LSI, SLI, not as masculine?
    If it says that, it'll probably be using gender norms to explain the differences. But yes, I don't take the Romance Styles very seriously.

    LSI and SLI are pretty masculine but a lot more restrained and less boisterous. Less proactive about taking charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    What's this Movement Styles thing exactly?
    It's my own addition that I'm still working on. It assumed that Se and Si play a role in your physical movements. People with high Se being physically confident with powerful movements while people with high Si would be physically controlled, making precise, graceful movements. As a result, the opposite would show in Intuitors... those with very weak Se (high Ni) moving delicately i.e. small, frail and self-protective movements and those with very weak Si (high Ne) would move clumsily, lacking control but making bigger movements nonetheless.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No. It's nothing to do with understanding "the definitions" or not.
    Well, it is if the matter is confusing two things that might appear similarly. You'd be able to apply the qualifiers to distinguish whether it is one thing or the other or know when to suspend judgement between the two until more evidence comes to provide context.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    And why would that be?
    If you look at the article above, the Stable-Normalising temperament (IJ) is one that focuses on personal values/principles etc. and sticks to those rules with a perfectionist quality. If something can't be done perfectly, it often isn't done at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Thing is how do you know Stannis doesn't have wants and desires over rules and logic in other situations? (Using your original example)

    You don't know...

    I often find in real life that these things are not fixed for people like that. You could say I should only expect such consistency from the leading function but I still see a problem there.
    He could be lying, but it would be unlikely without a reason for why he would be lying. It's very much consistent to the personality he shows in the books.

    I don't know about consistency but the leading function is meant to be set as the source of a person's worldview. As an Ne lead, the basis of all my values and the vast majority of my decisions are those that allow me to do more interesting things with few restrictions and obstacles.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I recall some other socionist couple ended up only caring about two types (out of the 16). (See http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...d_and_Ovcharov)
    Yes, apparently only ILEs and EIEs can be famous...

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    How would you sum up the values of the west that are anti-Se? In a more specific fashion than just saying "Judeo-Christian" values
    Jesus and then Gandhi, eastern ideas of Ahimsa and other similar memes changed the way we think about resistance. Physical force has been suppressed in western society with the forming of the United Nations. Instead of expansionist wars and conquering of rival nations, countries have to seek arbitration and compromise. Conquering anything by force is no longer seen as valuable but is rather disapproved of. Instead, non-violent resistance is seen as the key to making change. At the same time, western condemnation of Hitler and the Third Reich further vilified Se while also turning people against Fe. Now, not only is violence seen as bad, but being part of public opinion is frowned upon. Peer pressure and sheep-culture are concepts often thrown around nowadays and there is a strong tendency for moral lessons learned in children's TV shows that are of an Fi Ne persuasion.

    Just imagine how different the world was back in the ancient world, where things were Beta. Moral worth was tied up with physical superiority and strong leadership. It was the cult of personality that was the 'hero'. Now when we look at Superman, we see the 'hero' fundamentally altered with Delta, Judaeo-Christian morality. At the same time, those who have been oppressed are now looked on with moral warmth. To suffer at the hands of another seems to elevate a person.

    Nietzsche talks about this (albeit not through Socionics) in his Genealogy of Morals. He says that the Slave morality has overcome the Noble morality through guilt trips
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  4. #44
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    The reason you don’t see any points as it is becoming increasingly obvious to me; has to do with the fact you haven’t read in to socionics. At best scratched the surface; perhaps more time spent reading and less time critiquing is in order? Ignorance does make monkeys of men.
    People can start by reading my articles
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  5. #45
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    A question; if you saw someone who's emotionally animated in a given situation while you know that person's type to be ILI, would you have an explanation for that? If you feel like it, do make this a thought experiment and let me know what explanation it would have.
    I've seen ILIs being emotionally animated before. One does need to apply context to these situations... To act in the spirit of Fe is to express emotions that are not necessarily sincere so that you can contribute to a group mood. This is what I would be very surprised to see an ILI doing. However, if someone has just managed to excite an ILI (SEEs often can), you can see the emotionality coming out. It's not too common but it happens. The feeling will always be genuine too as they have no Fe to amp things up more than they are.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    Not too surprised. The cognitive functions are pretty vague and hard to see in people.
    In the studies they were given operational definitions so vagueness was not an issue. The problem was, operational definitions didn't behave as neat and didn't show correlations as neat as it would be expected by fans of function and type dynamics theory.

    Also, your way of talking about functions does not sound vague at all. It's all operational definitions, you seem to be equating functions with concrete traits. Those things are absolutely not hard to see in people. The advantage is that if you are willing to let go of your assumptions then such a concrete tangible approach will easily show you where the theory doesn't work out so well. So I am wondering, how come you haven't seen that, or have you, but you have explanations for all of it?


    If it says that, it'll probably be using gender norms to explain the differences. But yes, I don't take the Romance Styles very seriously.
    And then the question is, how does socionics functions and gender norms work together. E.g.; where does a socionics function end and where does the gender norm start?


    It's my own addition that I'm still working on. It assumed that Se and Si play a role in your physical movements. People with high Se being physically confident with powerful movements while people with high Si would be physically controlled, making precise, graceful movements. As a result, the opposite would show in Intuitors... those with very weak Se (high Ni) moving delicately i.e. small, frail and self-protective movements and those with very weak Si (high Ne) would move clumsily, lacking control but making bigger movements nonetheless.
    Interesting, it would be even more interesting if you did your own study about whether this assumption is actually that correct.

    Also, how about creative function, I assume your addition is more about leading function showing?


    Well, it is if the matter is confusing two things that might appear similarly. You'd be able to apply the qualifiers to distinguish whether it is one thing or the other or know when to suspend judgement between the two until more evidence comes to provide context.
    You know, the way these things tend to turn out, I usually end up suspending judgement, meaning that it doesn't seem a very usable theory...


    If you look at the article above, the Stable-Normalising temperament (IJ) is one that focuses on personal values/principles etc. and sticks to those rules with a perfectionist quality. If something can't be done perfectly, it often isn't done at all.
    Yes, I know that, my question was about however what deeper reason there would be for enneagram 1 overlap with IJ temperament. Enneagram after all is not about cognitive functions, so how come there would be this overlap? Have you ever thought about this?


    He could be lying, but it would be unlikely without a reason for why he would be lying. It's very much consistent to the personality he shows in the books.
    I didn't imply he was lying. I implied the personality may be more variable than assumed.


    I don't know about consistency but the leading function is meant to be set as the source of a person's worldview. As an Ne lead, the basis of all my values and the vast majority of my decisions are those that allow me to do more interesting things with few restrictions and obstacles.
    Well glad you have such a consistent worldview that most of your stuff can be categorized under one single approach. I'm not quite sure that everyone is this consistent.


    Jesus and then Gandhi, eastern ideas of Ahimsa and other similar memes changed the way we think about resistance. Physical force has been suppressed in western society with the forming of the United Nations. Instead of expansionist wars and conquering of rival nations, countries have to seek arbitration and compromise. Conquering anything by force is no longer seen as valuable but is rather disapproved of. Instead, non-violent resistance is seen as the key to making change. At the same time, western condemnation of Hitler and the Third Reich further vilified Se while also turning people against Fe. Now, not only is violence seen as bad, but being part of public opinion is frowned upon. Peer pressure and sheep-culture are concepts often thrown around nowadays and there is a strong tendency for moral lessons learned in children's TV shows that are of an Fi Ne persuasion.

    Just imagine how different the world was back in the ancient world, where things were Beta. Moral worth was tied up with physical superiority and strong leadership. It was the cult of personality that was the 'hero'. Now when we look at Superman, we see the 'hero' fundamentally altered with Delta, Judaeo-Christian morality. At the same time, those who have been oppressed are now looked on with moral warmth. To suffer at the hands of another seems to elevate a person.

    Nietzsche talks about this (albeit not through Socionics) in his Genealogy of Morals. He says that the Slave morality has overcome the Noble morality through guilt trips
    Alright but why is physical force always related to Se? Not only that, but why is Se also always being equated with physical force here? (That is, if something's Se, then it's physical force as well) Before answering this - somewhat rhetorical question - see below what I really mean by it.

    The world is indeed heading in a direction where having knowledge/information/intelligence will achieve more than willingness to enter physical fights. Calling this anti-Se is another thing entirely though. This isn't an explanation for anything at all. Reducing Se (as a cognitive function) to the concrete trait of violence does simplify the theory to the extent that it shows that it doesn't actually explain anything, what's left is just a descriptive approach.


    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    I've seen ILIs being emotionally animated before. One does need to apply context to these situations... To act in the spirit of Fe is to express emotions that are not necessarily sincere so that you can contribute to a group mood. This is what I would be very surprised to see an ILI doing. However, if someone has just managed to excite an ILI (SEEs often can), you can see the emotionality coming out. It's not too common but it happens. The feeling will always be genuine too as they have no Fe to amp things up more than they are.
    Yes of course almost anyone should be able to be emotionally animated at times. Now, if the feeling is always genuine, then it isn't really Fe, is it? Then why equate Fe with emotional animation? If you decide not to equate Fe with it but make the definition depend on the source of the emotionality (genuine expression of own feelings or just adjusting group atmosphere), then how do you determine just by looking if it's genuine for the person or not? Dangerous grounds again.

  7. #47
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Those guys must be enneagram image types :P
    Ah a jab at my enneagram, you have cut me to the quick! From the man without MBTI or enneagram………. quid pro quo Clarice.


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes some socionists assumed this relatively equal distribution of all types (is this what you meant?) but that was based on some really theoretical logic. I saw some study where they picked some people and counted the types. I don't know how representative that sample was but it was far from equal distribution of types.
    Yes, we have probably seen the same statistics, but the sample sizes where tiny, I think it was a business lecturer testing his class, which came out extremely lopsided. Then again if you need statistics to validate your existence then some deep set introspection is probably in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Can you elaborate on the 2nd part of your sentence?
    That has to do with the fact I don’t speak a lick of Russian; so bad translations, mistranslations and untranslated works could potentially change my outlook. Also not a lot of scientific development from Russia seems to make its way out to the western world; I believe the last piece I read was about Russian scientists eating mammoth steaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I haven't read about socionics? Tell me, if you have read so much, do you know what your super-ego functions in socionics are?

    Also, I agree that VI is stupid.
    Either you are telling me that I am projecting my neuroses of dealing with socionics physical data, and expecting edchidna1000 to pick up the slack for me, or you think that I am attracted to edchidna1000 and am freaking out due to the fact he hasn’t stated how he feels about me, or you still haven’t read my explanation of the Beta joke. I am guessing the latter but if in case you are referring to the former I don’t have a problem with the observational nature of socionics, but rather the mechanisms and reasoning behind them. This is where the outdated concepts and eastern philosophies come into play. If the parameters of observation are held in suspect and do not address all the significant variables; (age, gender, cultural, socioeconomic, and so on.) that are necessary to tie cognitive functions to real world actions; then the observations will likely end up with unknown and uncontrolled biases. So by examining the concepts, attitudes, and environs that led to the observations I gain a measure of what those biases are.

    The assumption of a lack of knowledge has to do with your immediate reduction to a personal level. There are several problems with this; one everything I say will be measured against a personal standard, and two it reduces a theory mixed with extensive observations to a battle of personal experience; where understanding is moot. Consider these rhetorical questions; does your personal experience of relationship dynamics somehow invalidate those numerous and successful out of quadra relationships? Does that by extension give you the right to demand conformity to a broad rigid dynamic; given the increasingly complicated and evolving nature of human relationships?

    The thread has moved on so this will be my last post in this thread. I probably should have had a more measured approach to this thread. I have always been bad at gauging such things; always too much or not enough. Goodbye
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”

  8. #48
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Ah a jab at my enneagram, you have cut me to the quick! From the man without MBTI or enneagram………. quid pro quo Clarice.




    Yes, we have probably seen the same statistics, but the sample sizes where tiny, I think it was a business lecturer testing his class, which came out extremely lopsided. Then again if you need statistics to validate your existence then some deep set introspection is probably in order.



    That has to do with the fact I don’t speak a lick of Russian; so bad translations, mistranslations and untranslated works could potentially change my outlook. Also not a lot of scientific development from Russia seems to make its way out to the western world; I believe the last piece I read was about Russian scientists eating mammoth steaks.



    Either you are telling me that I am projecting my neuroses of dealing with socionics physical data, and expecting edchidna1000 to pick up the slack for me, or you think that I am attracted to edchidna1000 and am freaking out due to the fact he hasn’t stated how he feels about me, or you still haven’t read my explanation of the Beta joke. I am guessing the latter but if in case you are referring to the former I don’t have a problem with the observational nature of socionics, but rather the mechanisms and reasoning behind them. This is where the outdated concepts and eastern philosophies come into play. If the parameters of observation are held in suspect and do not address all the significant variables; (age, gender, cultural, socioeconomic, and so on.) that are necessary to tie cognitive functions to real world actions; then the observations will likely end up with unknown and uncontrolled biases. So by examining the concepts, attitudes, and environs that led to the observations I gain a measure of what those biases are.
    Fine, but I'm responding solely to you accusing me of not having actually read anything. Which I have demonstrated to be bullshit, especially because you have evidently not done as much reading as I have. (I notice you didn't answer my question... a simple question about functional stacking in Socionics. One would think that if you read the material claimed, you would know the answer.)
    The assumption of a lack of knowledge has to do with your immediate reduction to a personal level.
    If you were attacking me reasoning, then why weren't you attacking my reasoning? Instead you just accused me of not reading anything about it. I guess you shot yourself in the foot.

    There are several problems with this; one everything I say will be measured against a personal standard
    Thus being like the majority of conversations ever? Not sure I see the problem here.

    , and two it reduces a theory mixed with extensive observations to a battle of personal experience; where understanding is moot.
    Your goal does not seem to be to understand, actually. I guess we would have to start on what we both think about personality typology, and then work from the common ground to a discussion of differences. I suppose the first thing to ask is whether or not you believe that everyone has all 4 functions, and if there is an unconscious shadow personality.



    Consider these rhetorical questions; does your personal experience of relationship dynamics somehow invalidate those numerous and successful out of quadra relationships?
    I wouldn't know... people tend to think personality typology in general is not worth studying. I very much doubt there is a study I could cite, so I would have to rely on what I've noticed.

    Does that by extension give you the right to demand conformity to a broad rigid dynamic; given the increasingly complicated and evolving nature of human relationships?
    Yes. AMERICA.

    The thread has moved on so this will be my last post in this thread. I probably should have had a more measured approach to this thread. I have always been bad at gauging such things; always too much or not enough. Goodbye
    Five bucks says that this is wrong and that you'll respond to me. If not, I get the last word and therefore win to the casual observer.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Ah a jab at my enneagram, you have cut me to the quick! From the man without MBTI or enneagram………. quid pro quo Clarice.



    Honestly, I didn't notice what your enneagram was

    If you want to know my MBTI (or socionics type), check out my type thread and let me know what you think it is...

    Enneagram I'll put in my profile, one sec.


    Yes, we have probably seen the same statistics, but the sample sizes where tiny, I think it was a business lecturer testing his class, which came out extremely lopsided. Then again if you need statistics to validate your existence then some deep set introspection is probably in order.
    Lol @ second sentence.


    That has to do with the fact I don’t speak a lick of Russian; so bad translations, mistranslations and untranslated works could potentially change my outlook. Also not a lot of scientific development from Russia seems to make its way out to the western world; I believe the last piece I read was about Russian scientists eating mammoth steaks.
    OK, I see. Yeah, it doesn't help that we don't see the original sources much.


    The thread has moved on so this will be my last post in this thread. I probably should have had a more measured approach to this thread. I have always been bad at gauging such things; always too much or not enough. Goodbye
    I'm bad at it too :p But don't quit just because of that! :p


    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Five bucks says that this is wrong and that you'll respond to me. If not, I get the last word and therefore win to the casual observer.
    No. Just because you get the last word, to me you don't necessarily look like you're the one who's won it. :p

  10. #50
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No. Just because you get the last word, to me you don't necessarily look like you're the one who's won it. :p

    Maybe not to you or me, but to a lot of people. Consider perceptions of who "wins" a Presidential debate.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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