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  1. #11
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Trait theory will always beat out typologies in modern science. Many personality psychologists agree with typologies; they're useful to theorize with, and agreeing with any inventory is subjective... but it's all we've got. You can't come up with new research ideas to publish without playing around.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by edchidna1000 View Post
    To what extent are you a supporter of "pseudoscience nonsense" by belonging to an MBTI forum?

    At least Socionics has a structure coherent enough to be put up to empirical testing and has been done so to a certain degree in Eastern Europe.
    You have no idea what you're talking about.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Complex doesn't mean better.
    Quite the opposite in fact - complex almost certainly means worse. See Ockham's razor and Kolmogorov complexity. We must prefer the simpler theories first.

  4. #14
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    Ah what in the world are you talking about? MBTI can at least be loosely correlated to The Big Five, which is statistically verifiable*. Socionics on the other hand is based on 1930’s Psychology (duality is just a very strange extension of the Oedipus Complex.) which unfortunately contains all the eastern mysticism that the modern psychology institutions have spent the last half a century trying to distance itself from. Socionics is not, and will never be considered remotely scientific.

    Yes at this point I’m sure you’re thinking, what about all those 150 universities that teach it? Let’s be honest here absolutely no one in a modern western society thinks to themselves; “well I’m off to the ex-soviet union to get a quality education.” I honestly don’t think I have ever read about any scientific development of note from there; not exactly bastions of knowledge and innovation.

    Now I’m sure this looks like I’m just bashing socionics, but what I’m really trying to do is give it a reality check. Socionics is a form of spiritualism; it requires you take a leap of faith. The type dynamics are based on how you subjectively feel about someone, the religious symbolism, the numerology, the holistic nature of duality. Which given its origins is hardly surprising; you can take the religion away from the people, but you can’t take the religion out of people, the need will still remain. I just wish that socionists would be content with their own personal belief instead of feeling the need to come to MBTI forums and demand that others worship as they do. It’s the equivalent of Jehovah Witnesses knocking on your door constantly.

    *The closet thing that you are going to get for whole personality “empirical evidence."
    The loose correlation to the Big Five is in no way a justification of MBTI, a theory that must be proved on its Jungian functions rather than the superficial dichotomies. Even with that argument, Socionics bears the same loose correlation.

    I wouldn't say that Duality is an extension of the 'Oedipus Complex'. I've never heard of that comparison before and frankly it doesn't fit. At no point does Socionics claim to match young males up with their mothers. One could argue that the idea of duality stems from the Taoist concept of Yin and Yang, the idea that opposites can complement eachother when working together which I think is demonstrably true. Assuming two people with very different skill sets share the shame overall goals and value (Quadra Values), their different abilities contribute to a greater working whole which is the reason for models such as the CPI that put together different people of different roles and capabilities.

    Socionics has an integral structure that is coherent and definitions that are precisely defined. This means that they can be put up for experimental verification because experiments can be formed to test whether the structure holds in real life, whether, given the definitions of X and Y, the results hold that people who demonstrate X in the way that Y says do Z. This cannot be said of MBTI where the definitions are imprecise and hard to see in day to day behaviour.

    What's wrong with the education in the soviet union compared to the majority of community college institutions in the US? If there are Harvard, Yale or MIT graduates here, then I'd say there's a gap to close but otherwise that's just unfounded snobbery. I myself am at an institution of that ilk and I think that with empirical testing Socionics can be verified. Whether it is accepted by the scientific canon is another matter but not one of empirical validity.

    I would not say that Socionics is a form of spiritualism... Enneagram may be that but Socionics simply focuses on different kinds of information and the mind's ability to process those different kinds of information as an explanation of personality differences. The inter-type relations are hypotheses based on how one structure of preferred information might interact with a different structure of preferred information given the axioms. They also have yet to be empirically verified but are able to be empirically verified, which I argue is more than can be said for MBTI.
    Founder and President of World Socionics Society
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  5. #15
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Complex doesn't mean better. Socionics exploits your intuition. Intuition wants to assume patterns that sometimes aren't there. Ne wants to include everything. You don't know how to screen stuff out. Yea socionics gives your intuition something meaty to bite into but at the end of the day you are playing make believe with yourself. That's all I'm going to say on this.
    Even more than Intuition, Socionics is formed from Ti. As such, after the fundamentals, the rest of Socionics is deduced by combining elements together (much like Doodle God acually). To deny Socionics you'll have to deny the fundamentals i.e. that information can be divided into the concrete and abstract, the factual and the personal.

    To deny these fundamentals means that in order to stay consistent, you can no longer claim to be ISTP or any other MBTI type. You certainly cannot uphold your position of intuition exploitation while also claiming to be of an Enneagram tritype.
    Founder and President of World Socionics Society
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  6. #16
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funtensity View Post
    You have no idea what you're talking about.
    And you have no idea that I have no idea what I'm talking about... otherwise you'd make an adequate critique of my points rather than resorting to convenient assertions like that.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funtensity View Post
    Quite the opposite in fact - complex almost certainly means worse. See Ockham's razor and Kolmogorov complexity. We must prefer the simpler theories first.
    Ockham's razor requires that things be simplified if they can be while fulfilling the same purpose. Every part of Socionics complexity (at least what I explain in my articles) stems from the system not being able to explain things accurately without this complexity. It is a comprehensive complexity, not a superfluous one. There four different kinds of information which each exists in two forms i.e. 8 different aspects and so we need 8 different IM Elements to process them. As such a model of information metabolism MUST describe each of the 8 for each person. Conventional MBTI fails to increase its complexity when appropriate because this need to describe all 8 IM Elements performing 8 different functions for a person is ignored. For some reason, MBTI refuses to explain how an ENTP uses Te when he clearly does use it.


    In the same way, it would be silly to apply Ockham's razor to things that require complexity to function, like the vast number of names we give things in teh world. Would it be right to call everything in the world a single name like 'table'?

    Table is sitting on a table, responding to table about a table about table - that is essentially the misuse of Ockham's razor you are suggesting.
    Founder and President of World Socionics Society
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  8. #18
    Senior Member edchidna1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Out of curiosity, does Socionics still hold to the idea that you can develop functions consciously? Because I think I underwent some stress a few months back and actually began developing Ni and using it more often (strange isn't it).
    It depends on what you mean by developing...

    For instance, an ILE has Ni in the 7th position, making it the Ignoring function. ILE is strong at Ni but ignores it because he prefers to view abstract information in an Extroverted way. However, Ni will often play it's role in the background as you can't really pursue the latent possibilities without an awareness with the long term outcomes. An ILE will be able to begrudgingly focus on Ni and Te properly when required to though, for instance setting out a long term strategy in pursuit of a new project. They will just see this as a means of appeasing others demands rather than something important in its own right.

    Development really comes into the foreground when looking at the slightly weak (3-dimensional) functions, such as the Role and the Mobilising. For an ILE, these are Se and Fe and the ILE will often work on them until he has achieved a level of accuracy. For instance, I have developed my Fe by going into performing arts, learning to better convey emotions to affect others.
    Founder and President of World Socionics Society
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  9. #19
    subterfugee Xann's Avatar
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Hypatia's Avatar
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    We socionics cool kidz.

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