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Socionics - Do you recognize your dual when you encounter them?

chubber

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Aw, come on, don't be jelly now. You got to be mesmerised by them ESFPs as well and I didnt bat an eye, did I *pats head*

I'm lost now. :huh:
 

Amargith

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I'm lost now. :huh:

It was a joke.

It's hard to explain why. I guess its just coz they re so...different. They see the world so differently from me and are capable of things I could never fathom doing myself :shrug:
 

Honor

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I think so. I'd need to watch some interviews, get a feel for his interaction style.

The problem with typing celebrities is that we are typing them based on a carefully crafted public persona. I think this is why people are quick to type them as extroverts, because it's easy to mistake being personable and adept at social interactions as extroverted traits, when how well someone does in social settings really has dick to do with whether or not they're using a dominant extroverted function
Exactly. When I try to figure out a celebrities type, I try to watch a ton of video of him or her in various situations for that reason.
 

chubber

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It was a joke.

It's hard to explain why. I guess its just coz they re so...different. They see the world so differently from me and are capable of things I could never fathom doing myself :shrug:

Well, think! Is it their quest for perfectionism? Their hardassery? Partying hard? Do I need to go on?
 

Amargith

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Well, think! Is it their quest for perfectionism? Their hardassery? Partying hard? Do I need to go on?

If they know what they're doing, they make me weak in the knees. No words necessary. Just a glance. :coffee:

Happy?
 

Zarathustra

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Then I know a looooot of IxTJs, dude :alttongue:

Ok, lemme try this again.

ISTP or ENFP comes in on this forum.
He/SHe makes a thread about the dynamic between the two MBTI types
Says it goes great, but communication can be...difficult coz they are so different, but there is an instant draw and great chemistry because of those differences.
Inevitably, someone comes in and tells them this is coz they are duals in socionics.

Are they right[?]...

No, they're not right.

The idea of duals is that your dual is your shadow.

That is all you have to know.

Any screwing up that occurs after that is caused either by a problem with one system or the other, or user error.

If you are an SiTe type in one system, you should be an SiTe type in the other.

The problem is that MBTI puts "Jish" qualities in SiTe-type descriptions, while Socionics puts "pish" qualities in SiTe-type descriptions.

This makes Socionics descriptions of SiTe types (ISTp in Socionics; ISTJ in MBTI) sound "pish".

It also makes Socionics descriptions of TiSe types (ISTj in Socionics, ISTP is MBTI) sound "jish".

And, likewise, this makes MBTI descriptions of SiTe types (ISTp in Socionics; ISTJ in MBTI) sound "Jish".

It also makes MBTI descriptions of TiSe types (ISTj in Socionics, ISTP is MBTI) sound "Pish".

Hence, why ISTJs (SiTe) in MBTI will often identify with ISTj (TiSe) profile descriptions in Socionics, and why ISTPs (TiSe) in MBTI will often identifty with ISTp (SiTe) profilfe descriptions in Socionics. And likewise for all the introverted types (the least likely to do so, tho, are the INTx types, for an interesting reason).

But what this issue really points to is this question: which types actually have "Jish/jish" qualities and which have "Pish/pish"?

Is it the dominant function being either a judging or a perceiving function that affects this? <--- Socionics

Or is it whether one's foremost judging function is introverted or extroverted? <--- MBTI

The truth, as usual, is that it's both; that it's somewhere in between.

Hence, the 4 EJs (or Ejs) are Js/js in both systems, and are far and away the most "Jish/jish" of all 16 types.

But types that are Js in one system but ps in the other, or Ps in one system but js in the other (which, due to the structure of the two systems, ends up being all eight introverts), are kinda in between being "Pish/pish" and "Jish/jish".

Hence, INTPs (INTjs in Socionics) can sometimes seem very prickly/Jish, and INTJs (INTps in Socionics) can sometimes seem very spacy/Pish.

Because INTPs are dominant judgers, and hence are kinda judgerish, but their foremost extroverted function is a perceiving function, so they can also come off rather perceiverish.

Likewise, INTJs are dominant perceivers, and hence can be kinda perceiverish, but their foremost judging function is extroverted, so they can also come off more judgerish.

As such, interestingly, and as makes perfect sense, functionally, it's when the INTPs are more introverted that they seem more Jish (Ti[Si {loop}]), whereas it's when the INTJs are more extroverted that they seem more Jish (Te[Se {loop?}]).

Other types that are like this (i.e., all the introverts), share this same issue, and thus, are kinduva blend between perceiver and judger.

Depending on which system's profile descriptions you're reading, you should keep this in mind.

INTJs are often gunna be more perceiverish than what their MBTI profile descriptions say, and INTps are often gunna be more judgerish than what their Socionics profile descriptions say.

And so on.

For all the introverted types.

EPs (Eps), though, are gunna be super-perceiverish, regardless of system, just like the EJs (Ejs) are super-judgerish.

As to why you identify with INFJs (INFps) in Socionics, Amar: it's probably just shitty profile descriptions.

You probably share qualities with INFJs (INFps) anyway, being an NF, and you're just catching onto certain elements of the INFp profile descriptions in Socionics and identifying with them.

Also, as I showed in this post above, the quadras are problematic concepts, because they group duals (i.e., shadow types) together, and then act like the two types share these common qualities, because they share the same functions. That's an idiotic conceptual maneuver, as it ignores the fact that types usually suppress/reject their shadow functions, and thus are often actually extremely different than their shadow type.

(The story gets more complicated, if we start developing our shadow functions, and thus start reducing the rejective/suppressive relationship we usually have with our shadow functions, but that's less of a typical state of affairs, and more an advanced state of affairs, and one shouldn't be basing normal type descriptions based on that advanced state of affairs [especially considering, even when someone of particular type does develop beyond normal, and thus does lessen the suppressive/rejective relationship with their shadow functions, that doesn't mean they simply become exactly like their shadow type {e.g, INTJ->ESFP}; rather, when this more advanced level of development does actually occur, we still tend to experience our shadow functions in different ways than our shadow types do, as they are still inferior to our dominant functions {dom and aux}, and we are not nearly as adept at using them as our shadow types are]).

Because of this, there might be elements in the ENFp descriptions that you're rejecting/not identifying with (i.e., because some Socionics profile descriptions might be based on this idiotic conceptual move, and thus are making ENFPs sound too much like ISTJs [and, likewise, might be making INFJs sounds too much like ESTPs, which, as an EP, you are somewhat identifying with]).

...or is there another reason for the dynamic between these two mbti types?

There is.

It's a similar dynamic between ENFPs and all the IT types.

ENFPs are attracted to the inertness/lack of emotionality that IT types tend to display.

And how come Socionics - if it aint right - doesn't seem to confirm this?

I have no idea what this is asking.
 

chubber

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[MENTION=8413]Zarathustra[/MENTION] thanks for explaining that, now your first post makes more sense.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I just went on a date with an ESFJ. I think I get the dual thing.... somehow, it seems to mean that I end up having the conversations I want to have. It's only one date, so far, but.... even if we have different skills, we somehow have kind of the same (or overlapping) interests, almost. It was cool because I could talk about the stuff I want to talk about, and not just get stared at. And there was none of the weird antagonism/mutual mistrust of an INTP date.

The inferior functions are aspirational, so if your inferior function is someone else's strength, it makes sense why you would be attracted to that, if you can admit that you are attracted to that.


I can see how SFPS and NTJs (including INTps )are in the same quadra...they both seem to know what they want, and are inclined to go after that.

Alpha is not terribly serious, but can also be surprisingly considerate.

Anyway, initial reconnaissance is that ESFJs are awesome, in spite of much of what I've heard.
 

violet_crown

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Do you feel that instant pull, that supposed connection when you meet someone who is your dual and what is it like? How do you know for sure? What is the dual connection about for you?

My experience with ISFJs has been generally positive. I feel like I can be myself around them without being threatening or off-putting. I find their sweetness to be endearing, and I'm in awe of their grasp of detail and practicalities. They're also deliciously sensual without trying.

For me, the problem is that there's a flow that's so frictionless as to not create any sort of spark. I couldn't imagine feeling a great deal of passion for most of the ISFJs I've known. It's funny considering that my MBTI shadow type typically gets a strong and consistent negative reaction from me. I have a deep and particular kind of loathing that I reserve for ISFPs. Any system that takes acceptance of the shadow too literally is just bullshit to me.
 

baccheion

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I don't think I would. And, technically, I'm uncertain if my dual is ESFP or ESFJ, even though I know I don't get along well with ESFJs very well once we move past the superficial stage of the relationship. But then it's common for INTjs and INTps to hate both their duals and their conflicts much alike.
 

chubber

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I just went on a date with an ESFJ. I think I get the dual thing.... somehow, it seems to mean that I end up having the conversations I want to have. It's only one date, so far, but.... even if we have different skills, we somehow have kind of the same (or overlapping) interests, almost. It was cool because I could talk about the stuff I want to talk about, and not just get stared at. And there was none of the weird antagonism/mutual mistrust of an INTP date.

The inferior functions are aspirational, so if your inferior function is someone else's strength, it makes sense why you would be attracted to that, if you can admit that you are attracted to that.


I can see how SFPS and NTJs (including INTps )are in the same quadra...they both seem to know what they want, and are inclined to go after that.

Alpha is not terribly serious, but can also be surprisingly considerate.

Anyway, initial reconnaissance is that ESFJs are awesome, in spite of much of what I've heard.

I think that comes with age. Perhaps Duality only works from a certain age?
 

chubber

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Aw, come on, don't be jelly now. You got to be mesmerised by them ESFPs as well and I didnt bat an eye, did I *pats head*

Okay, ISTPs have functions of ISTJs, except in different priority. E.g. Se over Si, but they both have and probably are, on very similar level. If I had to guess. Thus it starts out as, oh yay! when you find them and then later you find out they aren't what you thought they were, when you delve into the specifics. Probably why I keep running into ESFJs instead of ESFPs, mistaking the one for the other. If one could look at each function's scores, it might be better to understand what I am getting at.
 

chickpea

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Umm I guess my relationship with ESTPs is that I either find them charming and end up thinking they're an asshole, or I just always think they're an asshole. But am secretly jealous of their ability to be an asshole and still socially successful.

My boyfriend could be an ESTP even though. Also I really hate socionics.
 

chubber

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Ah I have some understanding as to why ENFp might have a thing for ISTp, because... no wait I have found someone better, that can explain it in detail.

I call on [MENTION=5759]edchidna1000[/MENTION] to sort out this mess. Yeah, yeah... I know you want to club me to death. Just fix it already :D

edit: Compatibility for Myers Briggs Types Part 1 Here they refer to Opposite types compatibility (Kersey). I am of course aware that ENFP on MBTI isn't always ENFp on socionics.
 
S

Stansmith

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The presence of an (myers-Briggs) ENTJ does sort of stand out to me...
 
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