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  1. #81
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    I don't think they're very useful.

    I think they're bad stereotypes that don't actually represent the supposedly constituent members.

    ENTJs and INTJs in one group: yes.

    ESFPs and ISFPs in that same group? No.

    I get that they share all four normal functions (in MBTI), but...

    Acting as if they share the same temperament, or something, because of it...

    One group tends to reject the approach of the other group, at least on a "conscious" level.

    That doesn't exactly bode well for fitting them into a group that sees/does stuff the same way.

    Granted, on an "unconscious" level they might, but it's still not good for useful grouping.

    As such, the quadras are an excellent example of how Socionics overreaches.

    Same goes for the Reinin dichotomies, amongst other stuff.

    Socionics is like too much Ti(Ne) just run amok.

    I'm sure it's internally consistent and all...

    It just... doesn't (imo) seem to connect with reality.

    SFPs are much more the opposite of NTJs than they are the same.

  2. #82
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think they're very useful.
    Finally, INTps have this very special relationship with Socionics. They are like plague, eating its very foundation. They are like ever growing tumour that turns once solid and sound principals into a formless jelly. Just like a bunch of angry termites on rampage, they feed on anything structural, bearing clarity and simplicity... by turning it to dust.

    http://www.socionics.com/prof/intp2.htm

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Finally, INTps have this very special relationship with Socionics. They are like plague, eating its very foundation. They are like ever growing tumour that turns once solid and sound principals into a formless jelly. Just like a bunch of angry termites on rampage, they feed on anything structural, bearing clarity and simplicity... by turning it to dust.
    Yes, I'm familiar with this line.

    Broken English and all.

  4. #84
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes, I'm familiar with this line.

    Broken English and all.
    The other thing about the NeTi bias is how it defines Se. It tells me more about Alpha NTs who invented the system than it does anything Se. They seem to turn Se into something obnoxiously competitive and belligerent. Se gets defined through their own avoidance of it.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The other thing about the NeTi bias is how it defines Se. It tells me more about Alpha NTs who invented the system than it does anything Se. They seem to turn Se into something obnoxiously competitive and belligerent. Se gets defined through their own avoidance of it.
    8------D

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think they're very useful.

    I think they're bad stereotypes that don't actually represent the supposedly constituent members.

    ENTJs and INTJs in one group: yes.

    ESFPs and ISFPs in that same group? No.

    I get that they share all four normal functions (in MBTI), but...

    Acting as if they share the same temperament, or something, because of it...

    One group tends to reject the approach of the other group, at least on a "conscious" level.

    That doesn't exactly bode well for fitting them into a group that sees/does stuff the same way.

    Granted, on an "unconscious" level they might, but it's still not good for useful grouping.

    As such, the quadras are an excellent example of how Socionics overreaches.

    Same goes for the Reinin dichotomies, amongst other stuff.

    Socionics is like too much Ti(Ne) just run amok.

    I'm sure it's internally consistent and all...

    It just... doesn't (imo) seem to connect with reality.

    SFPs are much more the opposite of NTJs than they are the same.
    Then again...




  7. #87
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    SFPs are much more the opposite of NTJs than they are the same.
    Actually, Dario Nardi's research disagrees with you. He recently participated in a thread on Reddit where he had a Q/A session and he mentioned how seasoned INTJ brains look a lot like the ISFP brain and vice versa and it would be very difficult to tell the two apart if he didn't know their type already just judging on what areas they use during the EEG scans.

    Just because we reject our unconscious it doesn't mean it's not there. That was Jung's point too which is why he's even mentioning his theory of shadow integration to begin with.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Actually, Dario Nardi's research disagrees with you... he mentioned how seasoned INTJ brains look a lot like the ISFP brain and vice versa and it would be very difficult to tell the two apart if he didn't know their type already just judging on what areas they use during the EEG scans.
    Yes, I know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Just because we reject our unconscious it doesn't mean it's not there. That was Jung's point too which is why he's even mentioning his theory of shadow integration to begin with.
    Did you see my post above?

  9. #89
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The other thing about the NeTi bias is how it defines Se. It tells me more about Alpha NTs who invented the system than it does anything Se. They seem to turn Se into something obnoxiously competitive and belligerent. Se gets defined through their own avoidance of it.
    I agree that this is a problem but I would hardly hold that against socionics because we could raise the same argument regarding the MBTI and even Jung. That's why we got socionists after Augusta who has helped to redefine the system further such as Gulenko.

    Also, if you look beyond the rough surface of what Augusta was trying to say regarding Se, you'd realize she's not that far off. Just that she's expressing it very poorly.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  10. #90
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I agree that this is a problem but I would hardly hold that against socionics because we could raise the same argument regarding the MBTI and even Jung. That's why we got socionists after Augusta who has helped to redefine the system further such as Gulenko.

    Also, if you look beyond the rough surface of what Augusta was trying to say regarding Se, you'd realize she's not that far off. Just that she's expressing it very poorly.
    Gulenko is Alpha NT too (INTj).

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