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  1. #71
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Well, Fe types can have a tendency to tell others that you shouldn't say such or such thing or be such a such way because it hurts other people or similar. Just an unhealthy Fe display like how Fi types can be the opposite of going against the stream just because.
    Actually, I can do the Fe thing and I have done it. I have to be pretty provoked but there have been times when people have gotten out of hand with the insults and I have intervened. Hasn't happened that much but it's happened.

    Also, there have been times where I have been tempted to intervene but experience or something told me to do so would be fruitless. Maybe it's my knowledge of the people- they are are the types that aren't going to care about hurting others' feelings and thus won't be receptive to feedback. Also intervening could make me a potential target for their verbal barbs.
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  2. #72
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Actually, I can do the Fe thing and I have done it. I have to be pretty provoked but there have been times when people have gotten out of hand with the insults and I have intervened. Hasn't happened that much but it's happened.

    Also, there have been times where I have been tempted to intervene but experience or something told me to do so would be fruitless. Maybe it's my knowledge of the people- they are are the types that aren't going to care about hurting others' feelings and thus won't be receptive to feedback. Also intervening could make me a potential target for their verbal barbs.
    No words. Just kick their ass. That works....sometimes.

  3. #73
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    No words. Just kick their ass. That works....sometimes.
    Remember, you're speaking to someone who's likely Se vulnerable.

    Kicking someone's ass isn't exactly in my repertoire of behaviors.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Remember, you're speaking to someone who's likely Se vulnerable.

    Kicking someone's ass isn't exactly in my repertoire of behaviors.
    I think Se PoLR (INj) try to avoid it at all costs, until it's at unmanageable levels. Then they might respond with too much and/or sloppy use of Se. I guess the trick is learning how to manage this better. Then again, Ne is much, much better of thinking of ways around problems too. So it has no need to be direct, most of the time.

    When people don't care about hurting others, it's often more a power play than simply "not caring". They can change.. you just have to play the game a little bit. Maybe that's too much to ask though.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I opened a cashbox in our kitchen in which I have to pay 1 Euro everytime I tell my dom Fi girl that what she just has been doing "aint normal" or that "everyone would understand me except for her".

    We have grown pretty rich that way
    LOL, I can relate. Fe ignoring is a bitch that way. I am not very aware of how I make others feel because I'm so focused on what I'm feeling and whatever awareness I have tends to go in one ear and out the other, even when other people tell me pretty much in my face what I'm doing wrong. I usually don't get it anyway. And when you tell me I'm wrong I just get pissed off unless you do it very suggestively like @Amargith did earlier. It needs to feel like I came to that conclusion. If you force your POV I'll just be stubborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Actually, I can do the Fe thing and I have done it. I have to be pretty provoked but there have been times when people have gotten out of hand with the insults and I have intervened. Hasn't happened that much but it's happened.

    Also, there have been times where I have been tempted to intervene but experience or something told me to do so would be fruitless. Maybe it's my knowledge of the people- they are are the types that aren't going to care about hurting others' feelings and thus won't be receptive to feedback. Also intervening could make me a potential target for their verbal barbs.
    Yes. I can also intervene but then I tell people more straight up what I think is wrong more in lines with Te than Fe and it only happens if it irks my Fi values. I also don't tend to take sides but I find that both are equally wrong/stupid and I condemn both openly or what I perceive to be the source of the problem. I don't expect their social values to be changed; I simply expect them to conform to rules that we have that govern social etiquette. There's a subtle difference between the two mindsets. Ultimately Fe types just want people to get along but I don't. I don't care what they think or feel of each other as long they don't disrupt my experience on the forum. We got forum rules to deal with that and if you can't follow them, too bad.

    The thread with The Great One arguing with DJ Arendee is a good example. I am not going to say that either one is mean to each other because I think they are equally wrong. Fe types tend to be more likely to pick sides like that in contrast, strangely enough, or in some cases, make both sides reconcile.

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  6. #76
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Remember, you're speaking to someone who's likely Se vulnerable.

    Kicking someone's ass isn't exactly in my repertoire of behaviors.
    Actually, I don't mind violence as a last resort despite being Se PoLR. I think a good slap in the face can sometimes say more than thousand words but most importantly, there comes to a point where a person gets so stuck up in their current "energy level" that simply trying to argue them out of it is not going to work. Then a kind but physical reminder helps to break our focus. It works on dogs, I know it also works on humans. LOL. It doesn't mean I think someone should beat someone else up senselessly though.

    I don't think Se PoLR has to only appear as a feeling of being against violence or people who swear (well, if that's true, no wonder people think I'm an ESI and then I'm probably am one). It's more about an inability to process Se information and when delivered to you it just makes you feel very uncomfortable. As a perfect example, I'm a big fan of violent movies and games almost to the point where the bloodier the better (as long as it's stylish), but if someone tells me that a chair has only one point of use (Se + Ni), I'll immediately go, "no, think of all the other possibilities you can use a chair for!".

    Also, it should be noted before someone says anything, that while I may think that stylish violence is entertaining on the big screen, it doesn't mean I think violence for the sake of power is ok. But controlled circumstances? Yes, definitely. As long someone is not hurt for real.

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  7. #77
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I think Se PoLR (INj) try to avoid it at all costs, until it's at unmanageable levels. Then they might respond with too much and/or sloppy use of Se. I guess the trick is learning how to manage this better. Then again, Ne is much, much better of thinking of ways around problems too. So it has no need to be direct, most of the time.

    When people don't care about hurting others, it's often more a power play than simply "not caring". They can change.. you just have to play the game a little bit. Maybe that's too much to ask though.
    I have trouble knowing the degree of appropriate Se use. Like you said, I'd much prefer to find ways around problems (Ne) rather than brute force (Se). Yes, it could just be a power play. I often feel powerless to change or influence people. My mindset tends to be, they are who they are, they'll change if and when they'll want to change. I am generally clueless when it comes to trying to 'play the game' with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    LOL, I can relate. Fe ignoring is a bitch that way. I am not very aware of how I make others feel because I'm so focused on what I'm feeling and whatever awareness I have tends to go in one ear and out the other, even when other people tell me pretty much in my face what I'm doing wrong. I usually don't get it anyway. And when you tell me I'm wrong I just get pissed off unless you do it very suggestively like @Amargith did earlier. It needs to feel like I came to that conclusion. If you force your POV I'll just be stubborn.
    Sometimes my perception of how I think I make others feel doesn't always match the reality. I too am often in my own world of my own feelings. However, if someone tells me I hurt them unintentionally, I will feel bad about it and do whatever I need to in order for them to feel okay again. I hate having the blame placed on me for someone's bad feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Yes. I can also intervene but then I tell people more straight up what I think is wrong more in lines with Te than Fe and it only happens if it irks my Fi values. I also don't tend to take sides but I find that both are equally wrong/stupid and I condemn both openly or what I perceive to be the source of the problem. I don't expect their social values to be changed; I simply expect them to conform to rules that we have that govern social etiquette. There's a subtle difference between the two mindsets. Ultimately Fe types just want people to get along but I don't. I don't care what they think or feel of each other as long they don't disrupt my experience on the forum. We got forum rules to deal with that and if you can't follow them, too bad.

    The thread with The Great One arguing with DJ Arendee is a good example. I am not going to say that either one is mean to each other because I think they are equally wrong. Fe types tend to be more likely to pick sides like that in contrast, strangely enough, or in some cases, make both sides reconcile.
    I'm kind of in between these two points of view. I'd prefer it if everyone just got along but I know that practically, that isn't going to happen, unless you heavily censor content, which isn't desirable either for a good intellectual discussion. There is always going to be some level of dissonance, so as long as it's not affecting me personally, I'm not too bothered by it. I always have the option to ignore the threads where there's too bickering and the like.

    Also, I can be pretty unaware of certain forum drama that happens. Maybe it's just because I don't get involved much and stay detached or I'm just not drawn to the sorts of threads where it's more likely to take place or just made uneasy by too much disharmony. Anyway, a moderator says so and so is banned from the forum. To me, it seems to have come out of the blue but the problem may have been going on quite awhile and I just wasn't aware of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Actually, I don't mind violence as a last resort despite being Se PoLR. I think a good slap in the face can sometimes say more than thousand words but most importantly, there comes to a point where a person gets so stuck up in their current "energy level" that simply trying to argue them out of it is not going to work. Then a kind but physical reminder helps to break our focus. It works on dogs, I know it also works on humans. LOL. It doesn't mean I think someone should beat someone else up senselessly though.
    I would use violence too as a last resort. If some random stranger were to show up with a gun and demand I give him some money, I just might kick him in the nuts. But it's definitely not my preferred manner of acting. I much prefer to calmly reason things out logically.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I don't think Se PoLR has to only appear as a feeling of being against violence or people who swear (well, if that's true, no wonder people think I'm an ESI and then I'm probably am one). It's more about an inability to process Se information and when delivered to you it just makes you feel very uncomfortable. As a perfect example, I'm a big fan of violent movies and games almost to the point where the bloodier the better (as long as it's stylish), but if someone tells me that a chair has only one point of use (Se + Ni), I'll immediately go, "no, think of all the other possibilities you can use a chair for!".

    Also, it should be noted before someone says anything, that while I may think that stylish violence is entertaining on the big screen, it doesn't mean I think violence for the sake of power is ok. But controlled circumstances? Yes, definitely. As long someone is not hurt for real.
    I like movies with alot of action but not necessarily alot of violence. I don't like violence just for it's own sake. Some movies are bloody and gory just to see how far they can go with it and I don't like that. But if it's violence for the purpose of proving a point and it seems like the best way to get the message across than that's fine.

    I can really relate to your chair example. I cringe when I hear people say things like "there is only one use for x."

    As far as processing Se information goes, sometimes I have trouble knowing how much force to apply. It's not necessarily anything violence related but can apply to everyday physical objects. For example, I'll be working with some tool or piece of equipment and I pound too hard or not hard enough. I've had times where I've broken objects from unintentionally applying too much pressure or in the wrong spot. I don't know if this is really socionics Se related or not but it reminded me of it. I can be really clumsy with tools and certain physical movements.
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  8. #78
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Sometimes my perception of how I think I make others feel doesn't always match the reality. I too am often in my own world of my own feelings. However, if someone tells me I hurt them unintentionally, I will feel bad about it and do whatever I need to in order for them to feel okay again. I hate having the blame placed on me for someone's bad feelings.
    Would you say this is an example of just being weak in Fe? Like usually, I can't get what people truly think or feel for the love of me, but I can very well tell what I am feeling personally. The only way I can guess what people feel is if I can use myself as reference point and compare to something I've experienced that's comparable. Expressing my own feelings however... That's much more complicated. It's like what I feel is always too complex to be expressed in words.

    I'm kind of in between these two points of view. I'd prefer it if everyone just got along but I know that practically, that isn't going to happen, unless you heavily censor content, which isn't desirable either for a good intellectual discussion. There is always going to be some level of dissonance, so as long as it's not affecting me personally, I'm not too bothered by it. I always have the option to ignore the threads where there's too bickering and the like.
    For me it's more like an issue or a non-issue. Also as you say, I dislike censorship of all kinds and again, I don't care if people get along or not as long as they don't expressively disrupt my forum experience because they can't keep their bickering private.

    Also, I can be pretty unaware of certain forum drama that happens. Maybe it's just because I don't get involved much and stay detached or I'm just not drawn to the sorts of threads where it's more likely to take place or just made uneasy by too much disharmony. Anyway, a moderator says so and so is banned from the forum. To me, it seems to have come out of the blue but the problem may have been going on quite awhile and I just wasn't aware of it.
    Same. I tend to live in my own little bubble. Mostly if someone is randomly banned unless it's a person whose presence I enjoyed I will most likely not be very concerned though.

    I would use violence too as a last resort. If some random stranger were to show up with a gun and demand I give him some money, I just might kick him in the nuts. But it's definitely not my preferred manner of acting. I much prefer to calmly reason things out logically.
    Definitely. I do prefer non-violent resolutions if possible and I'm a pacifist.

    I like movies with alot of action but not necessarily alot of violence. I don't like violence just for it's own sake. Some movies are bloody and gory just to see how far they can go with it and I don't like that. But if it's violence for the purpose of proving a point and it seems like the best way to get the message across than that's fine.
    Well, there's a level where I think violence in itself can be pretty tasteful as a form of aesthetic, even when it's excessively gory. The Silent Hill movie has a few moments of these. I wonder if that's not just my 5w4 reacting though, like, as long as you trigger my logical fancy violence can equally fascinate as it can disturb me. Or like the horse scene in The Cell. Like I guess, ultimately it's not so much gore as it is macabre:


    As far as processing Se information goes, sometimes I have trouble knowing how much force to apply. It's not necessarily anything violence related but can apply to everyday physical objects. For example, I'll be working with some tool or piece of equipment and I pound too hard or not hard enough. I've had times where I've broken objects from unintentionally applying too much pressure or in the wrong spot. I don't know if this is really socionics Se related or not but it reminded me of it. I can be really clumsy with tools and certain physical movements.
    Haha, same! I'm also terribly clumsy and I got poor control of the physical environment in general.

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  9. #79
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vetani View Post
    Lmao, Madonna is SLE-Ti and I don't think she seems to care a lot about social norms.
    social norms for beta quadra are self-defined coolness which, when not respected, makes the person a loser
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  10. #80
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    Alphas: I feel like I should like alphas. They seem cheerful, creative, and generally well meaning, which are all good things, so I'm not really sure about the reasons behind the disconnect that actually exists. One thing that does rub me the wrong way about alpha NTs is their inclination to turn things that I take seriously into a theme of lighthearted speculation or joking. It's awkward and annoying.

    Betas: Betas are colorful and exciting. I often find their style aesthetically pleasing, but their shenanigans and histrionics can get a bit too much for me to take. It's not hard to detach from it though. They are irritating but entertaining. The bulk of my experience with betas has been with IEIs. Some of them are lovely, others I want to punch in the face.

    I'm tossing up gamma and delta for myself. There are things I identify with in both quadras and other things that I find uncomfortable to deal with.

    Gamma: I admire gamma drive and focus, and I think they're capable of tremendous insight. However, it bothers me when they glorify being cruel and vindictive for no apparent reason other than to make a show of strength. They're hard to get to know because they are so self-contained and have a standoffish "I already have all the friends I need" attitude to new people, and those are both traits that I possess myself, so the initial barrier can be hard to breach. However, things proceed very well after that's been accomplished.

    Deltas: Deltas seem like the "salt of the earth" quadra to me. I admire their patience, self-reliance, and humility, but honestly, they kinda make me feel bad about myself, like I'm just not as good a person, or like I'm an un-evolved member of their tribe. However, the same things that trigger feelings of inferiority or guilt can irritate me in other respects, because I frequently perceive them as preachy or boring. I get along very well with some of them but the others kind of blur together for me.

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