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  1. #131
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    I like a good group atmosphere but I kind of disagree with the notion that outsiders ruin it. If an outsider, wanted to join in, I'd accomodate the outsider, maybe changing the topic of discussion or suggesting an activity the outsider would be interested in. Also open to splitting into smaller groups, which is what gamma/delta is more inclined to do.
    You misunderstood. What I meant is the presence of someone who does clearly not wish to participate in the group.

    I like joking, gentle teasing, and laughter but I definitely don't like it, if it ends up offending or making people uncomfortable. This is why heavily beta groups in particular can turn me off. Sometimes, they are too obnoxious and take the jokes too far. I also gravitate towards those who appear to be interesting to talk to, who might have similar interests.
    Agreed.

    I kind of lean towards serious in terms of group interaction but I'm not opposed to loud laughter and jokes. Only if they are offensive jokes or if too much of the humor relies on "inside jokes" so that outsiders or even newer group members end up feeling distanced. I prefer fewer to many but this could just be the introversion talking. I like some open expression of emotions- it's no fun if everyone is stoic but at the same time, too much emotional effusiveness puts me off guard as well as people spilling their life stories to people they barely know.



    I tend to relate more to gamma/delta again as well. I mostly invite only the people I care about and occasionally people I feel kind of obligated to invite. For example, if I was inviting a close friend, I'd probably invite their spouse as well even if I didn't know the spouse. But I wouldn't be the sort to just have friends invite all their friends, etc. Gets too big and too chaotic.

    Again, I'm wondering if my relating more delta/gamma styles of social interaction in spite of self-typing as LII (an alpha type) is due to my strong introversion. I wonder if other introverted alphas and betas feel the same way and feel more at ease with smaller, lower-key groups?
    No, I think you're just an introvert. I was describing the quadras in very broad terms as a whole.

    Then again, I suppose it's possible, I've mistyped myself. I've also considered EII and ILI as possibilities.
    Fail to see the Fi.

    I identify with Ravenclaw the most with Hufflepuff a close second.
    I admire Gryffindor's but I'm not really brave enough for them.
    I don't relate much at all to Slytherin.
    I relate in this order: Slytherin, Ravenclaw, Gryffindor, Hufflepuff

    I think Ravenclaw would be LII, ILI, maybe some of the quieter ILEs and some EIIs
    Hufflepuff, I think alpha SF works, also some EIIs and SLIs
    I think beta ST could be either Slytherin or Gryffindor
    I do think any type can fit in any house but if just judging house values and how it overlaps with quadra, I think something like I already outlined.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  2. #132
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    You misunderstood. What I meant is the presence of someone who does clearly not wish to participate in the group.
    If they don't want to participate, that's their choice. I don't like pressuring people into doing things they don't want to do. Maybe that's just my vulnerable Se talking.
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  3. #133
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    If they don't want to participate, that's their choice. I don't like pressuring people into doing things they don't want to do. Maybe that's just my vulnerable Se talking.
    And here we just displayed how the aristocratic interpretation of things clashes with the democratic one. @LeaT good job. You too, such Irony.
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  4. #134
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    And here we just displayed how the aristocratic interpretation of things clashes with the democratic one. @LeaT good job. You too, such Irony.
    Explain sunshine?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  5. #135
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Explain sunshine?
    Well here goes nothing:

    You said that SI was misunderstanding what you meant by outsiders ruining the fun. The fact that you even referred to someone who does not want to participate in collective activities as an "outsider" gives an air of having a "this person is different because they don't associate with or have similarities with members of this group" mentality that is associated with the two aristocratic quadra than the other ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I view merry and serious as related to Fe and Fi respectively and I think it's easier if you view it this way. Merry types prefer open displays of emotion because it sustains the group atmosphere and I think an important aspect is how merry just like Fe, is inclusive. They seek people to become a part of the group as a collective experience because if you are an outsider you kind of ruin the atmosphere. This is the most emphasized among betas and somewhat among alphas.
    Also the emphasis on collectivism within groups also suggests more views associated with aristocratic values, and projecting the perception of the idea inclusiveness onto all Fe types more or less. Desire to share a collective experience is not the same thing as generating a pleasant atmosphere. Now in SI's approach to the group interaction discussion, for him it was more of an, "oh if the person doesn't want to join in on the fun, that's okay too" mentality. Despite him approving of maintaining a certain atmosphere social-wise, he did not explain things in terms of outsider vs insiders and focused more on respecting or acknowledging the wishes of the individual more or less.
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  6. #136
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    Well here goes nothing:

    You said that SI was misunderstanding what you meant by outsiders ruining the fun. The fact that you even referred to someone who does not want to participate in collective activities as an "outsider" gives an air of having a "this person is different because they don't associate with or have similarities with members of this group" mentality that is associated with the two aristocratic quadra than the other ones.



    Also the emphasis on collectivism within groups also suggests more views associated with aristocratic values, and projecting the perception of the idea inclusiveness onto all Fe types more or less. Desire to share a collective experience is not the same thing as generating a pleasant atmosphere. Now in SI's approach to the group interaction discussion, for him it was more of an, "oh if the person doesn't want to join in on the fun, that's okay too" mentality. Despite him approving of maintaining a certain atmosphere social-wise, he did not explain things in terms of outsider vs insiders and focused more on respecting or acknowledging the wishes of the individual more or less.
    l

    Interesting. I never thought of it in terms of aristocratic/democratic. Of the two, I relate to democratic much more, which suggests I'm alpha rather than delta. Given a choice, I prefer pleasant atmosphere to collective experience.

    And by the way, I'm a 'she'. Common mistake people make, being a female MBTI INTP/socionics INTj/LII
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  7. #137
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    To a large extent, socionics encourages people to think in terms of in- and out-groups, merely by pointing out the differences among the quadras. So I don't think making references to insiders, outsiders, and group participation is really the best indication of aristocratic or democratic preferences, if only because people reading up on this stuff have already been primed to think in terms of groups and group identity.

  8. #138
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    l

    Interesting. I never thought of it in terms of aristocratic/democratic. Of the two, I relate to democratic much more, which suggests I'm alpha rather than delta. Given a choice, I prefer pleasant atmosphere to collective experience.

    And by the way, I'm a 'she'. Common mistake people make, being a female MBTI INTP/socionics INTj/LII
    Alpha NT reading confirmed.
    I think the way you handle group things and make sense of them was pretty self explanatory.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  9. #139
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    To a large extent, socionics encourages people to think in terms of in- and out-groups, merely by pointing out the differences among the quadras. So I don't think making references to insiders, outsiders, and group participation is really the best indication of aristocratic or democratic preferences, if only because people reading up on this stuff have already been primed to think in terms of groups and group identity.
    In terms of in and out groups? How so?

    But the main difference between democratic and aristocratic quadras is in their what determines their perceptions of people. Aristocrats have a tendency to identify people in relation to the groups they associate with or groups they fit into (She's in drama club, he's a jock, etc.), while democrats tend identify people mostly by the specific traits or qualities they possess and focus more on the individual (She's cute, he's smart, etc.). That doesn't mean that democrats don't participate in groups, and that aristocrats are always in them.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."-Roger Kint, The Usual Suspects
    "You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else."- Tyler Durden, Fight Club
    ENTJ, LIE-Ni, 9w8-6w5-3w2

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    In terms of in and out groups? How so?

    But the main difference between democratic and aristocratic quadras is in their what determines their perceptions of people. Aristocrats have a tendency to identify people in relation to the groups they associate with or groups they fit into (She's in drama club, he's a jock, etc.), while democrats tend identify people mostly by the specific traits or qualities they possess and focus more on the individual (She's cute, he's smart, etc.). That doesn't mean that democrats don't participate in groups, and that aristocrats are always in them.
    No, I realize that people identify with groups and categorizing things and people to different extents ... I'm just saying that using it as a test to type people when they're already thinking about something as group-based as socionics isn't very reliable.

    I mean, if this were taken too literally, then anyone who was ever interested in typing anyone or attaching a socionics label to them would be an aristocrat. I don't know. Maybe I'm chasing something illusory here.


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