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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    depends who you ask. to me they are the same functions. i actually prefer the socionics function descriptions to those found in typology associated with mbti. the very basic truth is that our descriptions are language, we all interpret that language differently, and it is very very very very difficult to bring to light the invisible, imperceptible processes of consciousness.

    with that said, they have both contributed to how i internally define the functions, and i see no obstacles that says they must be separated. therefore, the j/p switch for introverts makes perfect sense, and everything seems to flow smoothly in the transition back and forth.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The definitions are close in some cases, like Ne, and different in others, like Si. This is simplifying it, but Socionics Si is more about being guided by your own physical comfort factor. While Se is about making impact on your environment, pushing situations, all for the objective of attaining something outside in the environment. Rather than appreciating "sensing" in the sense of what feels good, Se types feel good through acquisition and influence.

    Fi is about having a static, individualized personal attitude/ethical stance on things and people around you. Fe is about lifting the mood of those around you. Those ISFps who care to lift environmental mood and present a more inclusive, easy going disposition to others would be ISFp. Not all MBTI ISFPs are like that though. Those who have a more individualistic position of ethics that favors and excludes others, regardless of what the group wants them to do, would probably be ISFj (or maybe some other Fi type).
    And this too. Especially the second paragraph. With some reservations/additions.

  2. #22
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The definitions are close in some cases, like Ne, and different in others, like Si. This is simplifying it, but Socionics Si is more about being guided by your own physical comfort factor. While Se is about making impact on your environment, pushing situations, all for the objective of attaining something outside in the environment. Rather than appreciating "sensing" in the sense of what feels good, Se types feel good through acquisition and influence.

    Fi is about having a static, individualized personal attitude/ethical stance on things and people around you. Fe is about lifting the mood of those around you. Those ISFps who care to lift environmental mood and present a more inclusive, easy going disposition to others would be ISFp. Not all MBTI ISFPs are like that though. Those who have a more individualistic position of ethics that favors and excludes others, regardless of what the group wants them to do, would probably be ISFj (or maybe some other Fi type).
    that wasn't really how i read it... maybe i should go back and re-read.

    or perhaps i am just one of those mbti ISFP's that translates to ISFp, whereas most would translate ISFj...

    but when i read the description of the ISFj, it sounded very similar to mbti ISFJ, in my opinion.

    i need some cleeeear socionics information made for dummies.

    here's what i found:

    ESI-- or ISFj
    With Fi blocked with Se in their ego block, ESIs' primary focus in life is on stable inner criteria for personal relationships, therefore ethical principles through which they evaluate their own and others' behavior and ideas, backed by input from what they perceive as the real world and how people really are rather than idealism, imagination or not-demonstrated potential in people.
    1. Fi Introverted Ethics

    The ESI sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The ESI is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people as well of himself. This makes ESIs seem "judgmental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If an ESI has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion, but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth.

    This is manifested as a very high regard for personal loyalty and integrity, both on the part of the ESI and of others towards each other and towards the ESI. The idea that he failed on that is extremely upsetting to an ESI, and such a suggestion, made by others, is seen as the ultimate insult if the ESI himself does not agree. The same goes for accusations of unethical or unprincipled behavior that the ESI regards as unjustified.

    ESIs are very often more confident of the status of a personal relationship - and of what it should be in their view - than other persons; therefore ESIs often take it upon themselves to establish, maintain, preserve, or change the status of such relationships.
    2. Se Extraverted Sensing

    ESIs take direct action to accomplish their goals and desires in the face of external obstacles, and also the interests of their close friends, family, or associates. This may involve prodding others to take necessary action, deliberately applying pressure in specific situations, or abruptly taking on an organizational role. ESIs do not generally seek out confrontation, but neither are they afraid of it. They are inclined to be resolute in taking action and value this quality in themselves and others; however, this also leads to occasional impulsiveness, leading to actions that the ESI later regrets and wishing he hadn't taken, with considerable self-criticism.

    ESIs take their responsibilities seriously and tend to perform them diligently and with care. They expect the same of others and make that clear. They can be very demanding co-workers and bosses, but not more than they are of themselves.

    ESIs tend to evaluate people's ethical behavior "as it is" and not "as it could be" or "as it could be interpreted according to the context or another person's point of view". That means that they can be perceived as unrelentingly harsh, even unforgiving or vindictive, when correcting, punishing or even avenging what they see as unethical behavior, especially betrayal of trust. "Evil must be punished" or even "destroyed" is one of the ESI's mottos.

    ESIs place great value in long-term achievement and accumulation of wealth, but only as long as those do not conflict with their Fi priorities.

    ESIs have a strong sense of what is and is not physically attractive, and will often judge themselves against a very difficult criteria.
    SEI--or ISFp
    Si Sensory subtype (The Hedonist)
    Victor Gulenko

    Possess a good aesthetical taste; this can manifest in their clothing, interior decoration, and job. This artist is frequently drawn to depicting landscapes and still lifes. They are a judge of the savoir vivre; for them, comfort is very important. They are sybarites and take care of their external appearance. They are hedonists, and they love to provide pleasure both to themselves and to others. Outwardly, they are a bit more stout than the ethical subtype.
    Meged/Ovcharov

    Their dialogue provides the impression of a quiet, soft person. They love rest and comfort, and they are practical and attempt to portray refined taste. They are often engaged in fine art as a hobby. They are benevolent and tactful, their presence pacifies others. They try to sympathize with others, assist them and provide advice. They like to speak about sensations and attentively questions the interlocutor in regards to his/her affairs. They are often sluggish in behavior, slow in conversation, and they can slightly stretch out their words; sometimes without any formulated idea. Even when speaking rapidly, they will not hasten to end the conversation; They are able to speak long about the same thing repeatedly. They constantly smile with confidence, nod their head as a token of support, have lazy, smooth movements and refined, graceful gestures. May appear to waddle, or have “duck” gait, but their clothes and accessories are sometimes able to draw the attention of others.
    Sexual behavior

    They are very sexual, inventive and diverse in their intimate plans. Although appearing soft, they persistently display initiative in the approach. Knows how to persuade. Diplomatic and farsighted; love stability in relations and will not easily forgive betrayal. They are inclined to emotional enthusiasm, but do not always follow the call of their feelings. They need someone capable of winning their respect and admiration through uncommon abilities – these will aid for a long time in preserving their interest.
    Fe Ethical subtype (The Harmonizer)
    Victor Gulenko

    Emotional ethics are intensified. They are emotionally expressive and sociable, enters easily into any company, appears to be an extrovert. Loves practical and spacious clothes, about which they are not very choosy – they can also walk around shabbily. Artistic, frequently performs the role of instigator. They easily find themselves in amateur artistic activity, can be a musician, actor, advertising agent, or poet.
    Meged/Ovcharov

    They appear alive, emotional and free in their dialogue. They are able to easily string together lines of dialogue while willingly paying compliments; this ease carries a shade of familiarity. Shyness can be overcome by playful remarks; they easily speak ironically in a serious/valid tone. They often joke and can speak even of unpleasant things with a smile, but they are sure not to offend the person; they are precautionary and careful. At times they are impatient and restless, from time to time they quarrel with others but are easily appeased and forgiving. Usually optimistic; like to give and receive pleasure; often gives people compliments and often renders various services; are able to cheer up and encourage others. Seem serene for they are prone to hide negative emotions from strangers/simple acquaintances. They speak quickly and confidently, at times categorically, with imperative intonations. Appears noticeable and quick, at times significant; movements are assured and graceful but a little bit gusty.
    Sexual behavior

    They are romantic in love, emotional and eloquent. Are reasonable and yielding yet often touchy and wounded; subjected to sharp fluctuations of mood. They may hurry events and manifest impatience. Values frequent sexual contacts. Frequently inconstant in their feelings, but very attentive to those whom they love. At first, they can be tormented by uncertainty, then, intrigued, they are able to take the initiative. When interest in their partner lessens, he can be energized with mild jealousies.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  3. #23
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    There is some confusing information there. The ESI main page is more Western user contributed, I think? If you took the Russian authors like you did for SEI though, ESI's doesn't come off like some insane Spanish Inquisitor (which isn't very ISFJ OR ISFP).

  4. #24
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    ^ i read some of the russian descriptions zarathura linked me to, and they were so distant.

    Kind, courteous, gentle - these are just a few of the adjectives that can be used to describe the female SEI. Some characteristics include a fascinating femininity. She enjoys the furs and the elegant caps. Unusual elegance penetrates her figure even when she is dressed in the usual, daily clothing, since in this girl there is no angularity whatever, and all her motions are graceful and smooth.

    The first encounter with the female SEI is fascinating. She jokes, skillfully she flirts, she knows how to rapidly reduce psychological distance and to enter informal contact. Soft charm penetrates each motion.

    Even a modest wardrobe does not impede the female SEI in her beauty. No one is more skilled in detail, which harmoniously is combined with the color of her hair, eyes, lips and even her beautiful skin. Representatives of this type have very good hands; therefore they wonderfully sew and touch, giving the will of her fantasy. They possess excellent taste. Wearing any simple blouse, they know how to successfully supplement with any colored scarf, beautifully that drapes about her neck. In a brief exterior view - this is the present work of skill.

    The worker of the cadre agency of the SEI is an admonished young girl - a new collaborator, telling it as news herself in the office. To the end surprise of girl she nothing said either about the business qualities, which will be required by it on the new work or about the fact that it cannot be been late nor about the fact that it does not stand too it takes a long time to have dinner or to read in the operating time. She said once: "it is compulsorily to dress properly. In you must be an office style. Memorize this: In this the guarantee of your success".

    She has a slightly rounded, soft face. The clouded, romantic view her frequently departs to herself, but her quiet pensiveness can become charming laughter very quickly. Usually women of this type are very delicate and those brought up, by those by sometimes even act unsure of themselves. It is difficult to visualize so that they would allow themselves to be roughed up.

    It is held worthily, mysteriously and coquettish with the acquaintance DYUMKA. It risible and willingly otklikayetsya to your jokes, but it knows how with the merit to deflect obtrusive care. She understands well which occurs between it and partner, and it knows how to make from the relations intrigue. If to cavalier is sufficient resourcefulness, witticism and resourcefulness, he will be succeeded in move on one half-step more forward. Your relations so will begin. Further it will be not less interestingly, especially the fact, who understands.

    DYUMOCHKA - excellent keeper of domestic center. It is tender wife and outstanding mistress. It selflessly loves children and it can for long sit with them house. For its family DYUMKA it is ready to endow by career, moreover never it will be sorry about this, finding enormous pleasure in supporting of husband and handling it, living by the interests of children, worry about the house. In the case of divorce or death of husband rapidly it enters into the new marriage, not so much because heavily transfers solitude, as because of its vital tendency about someone to worry.

    It is most characteristic for the women of this type two features - unusual patience and the usual readiness to handle others. It is very difficult to derive it from itself, since its philanthropy practically does not know boundaries. It is always ready to understand and to forgive its partner, to smooth the awkwardness allowed by it, to make a form, that it did not note oversight or roughness. It relates to everything this with the understanding and the angelic patience.

    Girl friends also can design for it, if they should sob to mountain, share with happiness, if they are necessary sympathy and mutual anxiety. Them they will comfort, and they will feed, and will support, and rassmeshat, and they will distract. Briefly, gloomy thoughts will be scattered as the sleep, when DYUMKA begins to doctor your sincere wounds.

    However, the concern of women of this type is extended not only to your state of spirit, but also to the body. DYUMKA excellently prepares and never it will let go guest hungry. Yes even all relatives in it are spoiled by the dear dishes, pickles, jams, pampushkami, pancakes and pirogues. In the skill of the preparation of all possible viands almost no one will be compared with DYUMOCHKAMI. They adore to invite guests, to arrange present holidays for their small company, astonishing all by culinary talents and warming with quiet, but deeply expressive emotionalism.

    House DYUMKI - this is the warm house, in which you will be always accepted and given affection. Even the most modest dwelling the woman OF THE DUMASES knows how to surround with the taste and to convert into the comfortable nest. The flowers wonderfully grow in it, and animals love it.

    The women OF THE DUMASES are characterized by steady, life-loving nature. In this case they - the most undemanding and most patient, most modest and most unassuming. They are exceptionally good to the children, but those know maminu solid hand, and in their indulgence they do not go beyond the framework established by it. This quiet domestic angel, who does not lose heart even in the most severe times, in the individual rare cases completely knows how to postoyat' for himself and his close ones. True, frequently the delicacy and they hang somewhere else compassion to others, so that it does not reach the matter.

    If it seemed you that this romantic- domestic essence cannot learn, then this not then. DYUMKI honestly "gnaw the granite of science" and not less honestly pass examinations, on the course of events charming instructors it is masculine floor and obtaining good marks. Certainly, it is better, if this girl learns not to the engineer, but, for example, to the modeller. In the latter case its vocation will find the suitable embodiment in the profession. Are good also any specialties, which assume in the future work with the people or with the children.
    Female portrait

    ("DRAYZERKA" is the feminine version of Dreiser, much like Alexei and Alexandra. To avoid confusion, I will substitute "DREISER" into the names, so that the relationship is more obvious. I'll also try to make the modifications to "DREISERKA" more lucid.)

    A little tough, ordered DREISERKA manages her body well, she moves confidently and beautifully, she sits exactly (i.e. with a perfect posture). She has outstanding carriage. Clothing on her is worn accurately and appropriately. Her entire appearance produces a very worthy impression. But also a certain baring does not spoil her at all, but only decorates her - she does not feel it is necessary to be troubled over her figure. Moreover she is very graceful.

    Most frequently, she has a correct face and unusually expressive, warm and agitating eyes. She knows how to select a suitable hair-do and she truly professionally uses mascara.

    During childhood, this is a planing and correct girl. Yes even her assiduity does not occupy. She knows what it means to enter nicely, as she must and since she must is not news itself. In her, the order in her head, on her writing desk and in her briefcase, her writing are designed with beautiful handwriting.

    DREISERKAs are demanding of themselves, they possess strong wills and they can force themselves to take to heart the fact that making children usually is not desirable (this was the only interpretation that I could make of this). But they also manifest an exactingness of others. Such that, not all of those desiring can become girl friends and friends of this girl. DREISERKA is very, very exacting of others. And no one gets away with any irresponsibility. Homework she does in accordance with a plan same as, however, many other things. She loves the measured-out life from childhood itself and she can get upset, if her plans are destroyed. In such cases, unexpectedly, even a scene with tears can occur. Thus, there must be no unexpected trips to the zoo or the aquarium (the original Russian word described a place for just dolphins and other marine mammals, not that it has any relevance to the text). It is better to plan matters beforehand.

    It is possible to calculate with general assiduity and assiduity that DREISERKA will learn well (this sentence sounds grammatically correct, but makes little sense to me; maybe "with" needs to be replaced with "that through"). Sometimes even medal winners are obtained from them. And, although by them, nevertheless, it considerably more greatly pleasant to be occupied with humanitarian subjects, than with mathematics and the natural sciences, girls of this type frequently go to the technical VUZ - Institute of Higher Education and, because of their assiduity, later even work as engineers.

    DREISERKAs have nothing against serious occupations by sport. They have a beautiful, strong body; therefore from them emerge outstanding gymnasts, swimmers (synchronized swimming), figure skaters, (I swear to God I did not make up these last to) circus acrobats, stripers.

    The large companies, where there are too many unknown people, DREISERKA does not love. She, from childhood itself, acquires one or two close friends. The following wave of acquisition of friendly relations occurs at the institute (if you do not understand - Dreiserkas have a systematic, cyclical process to befriending others). But here as well, she will, with effort, collect 1-2 girl friends. And, although friends around her are actually few, then she, as a rule, preserves them around herself for life. Specifically, with them, she will share her happiness and misfortunes.

    However, the fact that she is usually in a small, close group of friends, which goes without saying, it does not mean that she does not love sometimes to enjoy herself. These girls dance well and moreover are very beautiful and graceful. Therefore, success in any company (of friends) - providing a ford for them (allowing them to bridge the gap with others). But do not hope that you will easily enter into the confidence of a DREISERKA. She will focus on you her serious attention, if you are promising, young loaded (rich? or exciting? I cannot figure it out). She is also pleased, when a man is characterized by rapidity and mental acuity. If all this describes you, then there can be no doubt, that she marries you sufficiently rapidly, because DREISERKA - a girl that has an exclusive purpose and follows through. And she never steps back from her purposes.

    When you are married to her, then you will discover that you have an exceptionally responsible, industrious wife, who diligently watches the (household) economy. She tries to maintain an ideal cleanliness, so she zealously cleans and washes her house, leading it literally to sterility. From time to time you will rearrange the furniture with her, because sometimes she wants something new.

    Prepare for the fact that walking with her to the store will not be such a light occupation. The truth is that your wife is horribly endowed, when it is necessary to select from two or even more objects. Therefore, instead of standing together with her at the counter and, for half-hour, listening to her, as she oscillates even as she doubts (oscillating here could be in the waving, moving sense, probably for comical effect), it is better to make a decision yourself, after freeing her from this need. In the end- one of such many ends (<- this part could be my own interpretation), according to a large majority, there is no difference; you will either purchase the pink kitchen towel or the yellowish one (yellowish in the cutesy sense, not the horrible, oh-God-what-the-hell-died-on-that-! sense). However, DREISERKA - a sufficiently modest existence and loves to bypass the miniscule details, so that not too frequently will you stumble upon such situations. And still, they love to economize, but she is unique - she can lose much, but save a ruble (Russia's currency).

    Your wife cooks with standard recipes, proven for centuries or obtained from her mom. She prefers the proved and reliable to all possible innovations. Your wife also honors traditions; therefore prepare to celebrate at home all traditional holidays and invite inside her relatives and close circle of close friends.

    DREISERKA - restrained and brought up woman, with a deep sense of self-respect. True, if you derive it (I can only guess this refers to self-respect) from yourself, she can whip up for you a stormy, emotional scene, which you will remember for a long time. This way uh, she protects her positions in the life.

    She loves if everybody in the house lives in her established, inviolable order, which she will, everyday, inject with all her force. The joint matters in her family are planned beforehand, because she badly handles uncertainty. And already if she solves something, then she will always attempt to adhere to that accepted solution.

    If in the evening, I prepared clothing for myself, and in the morning, the weather proved to be not what they promised, and for me, it was necessary to rapidly put on something different, then the entire day can not go for me then, because my mood was not created to this clothing.

    DREISERKAs - strict, but loving moms. They require of their children obedience and train them to follow orders. In any case, the physical state of children, the completion of homework and contact with friends will always be under the control of the strict and indefatigable DREISERKAs. She must know, with whom the child associates, where he went and when he will return. The fact is that any uncertainty for her is not tolerated. Briefly, she will try to make it so the intentions of all relatives would be transparent, and behaviors were known.

    Because of their assiduity and further assiduity, DREISERKAs can be acknowledged as some of the most reliable collaborators, because, among entirely other things, they still care about their matters. But if the work for DREISERKAs is new, then do not forget to give the most detailed instructions to them. This includes what to do, otherwise the matter will not move from a dead halt. It will still be better, if she writes down the orders, as in what sequence to do things in. But it is really with work, with which she is already well familiar, is it possible not to be disturbed. Everything will be done honestly, accurately and on time.

    And, nevertheless, on any work, DREISERKAs, first of all, are occupied with people and their problems. Therefore, it will be better, if they select for themselves work, which is directly connected with people. DREISERKAs - excellent teachers (especially for the lower grades), educators in kindergartens, psychologists, nurses, pediatrists, models. From them also are obtained excellent correctors, editors and foreign language instructors.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #25
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    ^ but SEI still sounds more like mbti ISFP, while ESI still sounds more like mbti ISFJ.

    maybe i'm just retarded.

    *edit: i take that back... they both sound more ISFJ.*
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  6. #26
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Prepare for the fact that walking with her to the store will not be such a light occupation. The truth is that your wife is horribly endowed, when it is necessary to select from two or even more objects. Therefore, instead of standing together with her at the counter and, for half-hour, listening to her, as she oscillates even as she doubts (oscillating here could be in the waving, moving sense, probably for comical effect), it is better to make a decision yourself, after freeing her from this need. In the end- one of such many ends (<- this part could be my own interpretation), according to a large majority, there is no difference; you will either purchase the pink kitchen towel or the yellowish one (yellowish in the cutesy sense, not the horrible, oh-God-what-the-hell-died-on-that-! sense). However, DREISERKA - a sufficiently modest existence and loves to bypass the miniscule details, so that not too frequently will you stumble upon such situations. And still, they love to economize, but she is unique - she can lose much, but save a ruble (Russia's currency).
    lolololo. this is so true for ISFJs (ESI in socionics)

    but SEI still sounds more like mbti ISFP, while ESI still sounds more like mbti ISFJ.

    maybe i'm just retarded.
    You're right...the J/P switch doesn't truly operate except a minor number of cases. Ganin spread this "rumor" regarding J/P switching because he thought functions were defined in the same way in socionics and MBTI, but they aren't so as you say you can be Si-Fe in socionics and Fi-Se in MBTI...
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #27
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    Default Dual or Conflicting ???

    Hi,

    all this issue of *possibly* switching J and P for introverts is driving me nuts...

    I just want to know which relationships I should expect with different MBTI types. In my case :

    My tested MBTI type is ENFP.
    My tested Socionics type is ENFp, which is coherent with the switching rule that leaves E types unchanged.

    So far, so good.

    Now, if in socionics I'm ENFp, ISTp is dual and ISTj is conflicting

    But since the j/p switching for introverts is not systematic, there are 4 cases :

    a) either ISTp = ISTJ and ISTj = ISTP
    meaning ISTJ is dual and ISTP is conflicting

    b) or ISTp = ISTP and ISTj = ISTJ
    meaning the opposite : ISTP is dual and ISTJ is conflicting

    c) or ISTp = ISTJ and ISTj = ISTJ
    meaning an ISTJ can be either dual or conflicting (huh ?)

    d) or ISTp = ISTP and ISTj = ISTP
    meaning an ISTP can be either dual or conflicting (re-huh ?)

    Should I conclude that MBTI is useless to tell my dual type from my conflicting type ?

    Note : from my experience, ISTJ is the type I have conflicts with, pleading in this particular case for leaving types unchanged when converting MBTI into socionics.

    Can anyone help, I'm totally puzzled...

  8. #28
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    If you want to figure out your Socionics type make a thread about yourself here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...splay.php?f=15

    Best type correlations that I've seen:
    Alpha quadra: ENTP (ILE) INTP (LII) ISFJ (SEI) ESFJ (ESE)
    Beta quadra: ESTP (SLE) ISTP (LSI) INFJ (IEI) ENFJ (EIE)
    Gamma quadra: INTJ (ILI) ENTJ (LIE) ESFP (SEE) ISFP (ESI)
    Delta: ENFP (IEE) INFP (EII) ISTJ (SLI) ESTJ (LSE)

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