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  1. #11
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    these are the best function descriptions i know of in the smallest amount of space. i don't understand why anyone says they're not the same functions as mbti. to me they blend together in a perfectly coherent way.

    i don't see why anyone would say that the difference in typing has to do with anything other than a different way of expressing the type code for introverts. j vs p focusing on dominant function rather than on first extroverted function, or, in lenore's setup, left-brained vs right-brained predominance. i maybe see a value in the socionics j vs p, but not nearly as much value in the j vs p distinction in mbti. altho, at the same time, it's still the most poorly misunderstood element of mbti.

    i don't know what others seem to think is off. are there type behavioral descriptions that seem more skewed than mbti type behaviorists? i guess i don't really read those to begin with.

  2. #12
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    I find that Socionics and MBTI describe Jung's functions differently. MBTI defines Si in terms of memory but Socionics defines Si as (pleasant?) physical sensation.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Yloh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Hello!


    I'm sure this subject has been repeated over and over again, so if ever you have a good link about it, please, feel free.

    The Socionics mainframe seems very, very odd (and some aspects just make me laugh, especially the physical description), yet it looks superficially similar to some aspects of the MBTI.
    Yet, I've read many people complaining that their Judging/Perceiving scores were in fact inverted when they compared MBTI and Socionics. For instance, many INTP were in fact INTj, and vice versa (INTp becoming INTj).

    How could that be? Could you describe me how and why?

    This is confusing. Well, Socionics always were.
    LOL, I've only taken online tests, but I got ENFJ on both.

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    these are the best function descriptions i know of in the smallest amount of space. i don't understand why anyone says they're not the same functions as mbti. to me they blend together in a perfectly coherent way.

    i don't see why anyone would say that the difference in typing has to do with anything other than a different way of expressing the type code for introverts. j vs p focusing on dominant function rather than on first extroverted function, or, in lenore's setup, left-brained vs right-brained predominance. i maybe see a value in the socionics j vs p, but not nearly as much value in the j vs p distinction in mbti. altho, at the same time, it's still the most poorly misunderstood element of mbti.

    i don't know what others seem to think is off. are there type behavioral descriptions that seem more skewed than mbti type behaviorists? i guess i don't really read those to begin with.
    Huh. I find Fi VERY different in Socionics from Jung's description. I don't relate to it nearly as much.

    Honestly, this sounds more like my understanding of Fe in some ways, particularly the social hierarchy part:

    Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.
    For me, the behavioral descriptions for the types don't match MBTI either, as I mentioned in my last post. Socionics seems more behavior heavy in general, which makes it seem more stereotypical (person with X function will behave in Y way, right down to how they walk).

    The EII/INFj/FiNe type is described with what sounds like "J-ish" behavior in MBTI. So in socionics, the Ps still get the P stereotypes & the Js get the J stereotypes, which keeps there from being a clean J/P switch between Socionics & MBTI. In MBTI, J/P is determined by the main extroverted function, which makes more sense to me, if you're trying to use behavioral clues to type.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I still don't know nearly enough about socionics to be comfortable typing people, but the more I learn about it the more different the two systems look -- and the more likely it seems for someone to be biased towards reporting the same type in both despite not being so at all. It seems to me, for example, that ESTp doesn't fit ESTP in any way whatsoever, being indeed closer to the description of a monumental asshole ENTJ 8w7 (essentially it is SLE, rather than LIE, that is the field marshal type in Socionics). Similarly ISFj seems like an odd combination of MBTI Fi and N (Ni mostly, but Ne could fit), with Se (which in MBTI is a combination of Se and Te) as the creative (lead) function. It fits INTJ 4 best, followed by a deeply depressed ENFP, then ISFP and INFP. Then there's ESFp, the aptly named "politician" type, which basically describes an ENTJ with a lot of Fi -- or even a balanced INTJ 3w4. Basically Se types in Socionics are equivalent to Te + Se in MBTI, with a strong Te (Se is actually my PoLR in Socionics, which is something like the inferior. Fits Te being y tertiary and Se itself being my 5th function).
    Last edited by Aleksei; 07-20-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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  6. #16
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Tentative attempt at correlating MBTI and Socionics types (since none is really a clean fit as they measure different things to begin with, I'll go for a top-3 approach):

    ENFP- ENFj-Ni, INFp-Fe, ENFp-Ne
    ENFJ- ENFj-Fe, ENFp-Fi, ESFp-Fi
    INFP- INFp-Ni, INFj-Fi, ENFp-Fi
    INFJ- INFj-Ne, INFp-Ni, ENFp-Ne
    ENTP- ENTp-Ne, INTp-Ni, ENFj-Ni
    INTP- INTj-Ti, INTp-Ni, ENTp-Ti
    ENTJ- ENTj-Te, ESTp-Se, ENTp-Ne
    INTJ- INTp-Ni, ENTj-Ni, ISFj-Se
    ESTP- ESFj-Si, ISTp-Si, ESTp-Se
    ESFP- ESFj-Si, ESFp-Se, ISFp-Si
    ISTP- ISTp-Si, ISTj-Ti, INTj-Ti
    ISFP- ISFp-Si, ISFj-Fi, INFj-Fi
    ESTJ- ESTj-Te, ESTp-Se, ENTj-Te
    ESFJ- ESFj-Fe, ESFp-Se, ENFj-Fe
    ISTJ- ISTj-Se, ISTp-Te, ESTj-Si
    ISFJ- ISFp-Fe, ISFj-Se, INFj-Fi
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

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  7. #17
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Tentative attempt at correlating MBTI and Socionics types (since none is really a clean fit as they measure different things to begin with, I'll go for a top-3 approach):

    ENFP- ENFj-Ni, INFp-Fe, ENFp-Ne
    ENFJ- ENFj-Fe, ENFp-Fi, ESFp-Fi
    INFP- INFp-Ni, INFj-Fi, ENFp-Fi
    INFJ- INFj-Ne, INFp-Ni, ENFp-Ne
    ENTP- ENTp-Ne, INTp-Ni, ENFj-Ni
    INTP- INTj-Ti, INTp-Ni, ENTp-Ti
    ENTJ- ENTj-Te, ESTp-Se, ENTp-Ne
    INTJ- INTp-Ni, ENTj-Ni, ISFj-Se
    ESTP- ESFj-Si, ISTp-Si, ESTp-Se
    ESFP- ESFj-Si, ESFp-Se, ISFp-Si
    ISTP- ISTp-Si, ISTj-Ti, INTj-Ti
    ISFP- ISFp-Si, ISFj-Fi, INFj-Fi
    ESTJ- ESTj-Te, ESTp-Se, ENTj-Te
    ESFJ- ESFj-Fe, ESFp-Se, ENFj-Fe
    ISTJ- ISTj-Se, ISTp-Te, ESTj-Si
    ISFJ- ISFp-Fe, ISFj-Se, INFj-Fi
    I'm a socionics INTj-Ne, which I didn't see in the top 3 for any of the MBTI types. I just saw INTj-Ti. I kinda think MBTI INTP is more likely INTj-Ne and MBTI INTJ is more likely INTj-Ti.
    INtp
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  8. #18
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Well, subtypes within a given type aren't that different from one another. I just posted the three most likely types, with the most likely subtype for each.
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    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

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  9. #19
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I test as an INFp almost all of the time. Just like MBTI though, I kind of get confused between wondering if I'm ISFp or INFp. Both have Ni and Si and I entertain each one to an extent (as defined in socionics). If push came to shove, I'd be ISFp, because my future thinking is a little vague, and while I engage with symbolism, pattern recognition, and some of the stuff Ni is into, it's not enough to push me over. The important thing is that Se types like ESTp and ISTj incite annoyance or rage. I can't possibly be in their quadra (quadra is a good rule of thumb to look at when you're confused imo). And it's not that I'm afraid of them. I just go out the way to defend "Si" or something, just like ISTps. It's like clockwork. I never needed them.

    May as well go back to being retyping ISFP, I guess. It takes a lot of reading to make sense of it all. If anything, Keirsey is who confuses me the most. It pigeonholes too much.

  10. #20
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I actually find Keirsey easy. I dislike it precisely because it's easy (ie. it's shallow and simplistic as fuck).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
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