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Socionics is amazing

527468

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I'll throw in an utterly pointless post to counter the previous one written by lemons.
Socionics sucks when attempting to figure out the individual.

That is only because it has not been naturalized and humanized toward individuals of your specific culture. For me it is quite easy to understand the patterns within socionics to attribute them to self growth. I see more distinction among people with socionics than I do with MBTI. It might take someone like me who understands the material to naturalize it to thousands upon thousands of people, and that will come in the form of reorganizing the theory and giving it the impression of a fresh approach while keeping all the same principles. To someone like me, all of this has already been materialized.

Whatever you choose to believe that I-S-T-P or I-S-T-j represents is meaningless since both MBTI and Socionics can only hook a reader into their way of thinking if the reader only learns by using basic dichotomies.

Although this idea is quite valid, there are still many in whom I have encountered several dichotomy switches, and it is because neither the functions or dichotomies are exactly the same. Even seeming obvious to you that they are the same, you have to take a fresh approach to the theory and not make any orientation to MBTI. Not everyone is going to have both Tis or both Ses. For that matter I am glad they called it Ti in socioinics and not something else, because now people will easily start to contrast the two, which is what should happen. If they called Ti, "Structural Logic," I am sure there would be more intention to say it is the same thing as Ti in MBTI. But socionics is not some watered down version of MBTI. It is a new level of self-thought and relationships. Unfortunately it has some unofficial extremities in form of obstacles in the way, being formed into hundreds of new theories. It is a good thing, but many of the theories need to stop making branch upon branch. People need to learn to grow their own trees.
 

entropie

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rely ONLY on the dichotomy (which is statistically good but can go horribly wrong in individual cases), or rely ONLY on understanding of functions. (which starts out as chaotic confusion, but can be forced to match reality someday)

Or think of your own.
 

Snow Turtle

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Mmm... I've spent 2 hours reading this material. I'd like to know whether there is a 'better' method of self-assessment.

Dichotomies? (Including Reinin)
Individual profiles?
Quandras? Betas/IJs/Humanitarians
Individual Functions?

There's so many ways to go about this. Where does one even begin or more accurately which foundation does one start with, rather than reading everything in hope that they all interconnect at the end.
 

527468

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Original self assessment for me was of the quadra. Not necessarily quadra definitions, but functions of that quadra. I figured out that I was Ni/Se valued and Te/Fi valued, and then that my strengths were N and T. (ENTj or INTp) then after I assessed myself in terms of traditional introversion and extroversion: inward towards self or out towards world. "I am talkative and energized by people" is not a valid socionics lead to extroversion.

People act in ways of peace or stress of peace, or control or lack of control of environment simply based on Si and Se positions for one simplified example of function roles. Sensors often portray both strengths of course, though some can stress these beyond their values, and some can hide their strengths. There have been tendencies like V.I. and the like in which anyone can take notice and agree upon typing, and this happens in forums across the globe. Functions are also divided in terms like object and field, dynamic and static, internal and external. With all these simple terms we can measure ourselves and proceed into the more specific versions of the theory, into personalized self analysis.

Is this what you're asking?
 

"?"

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Although this idea is quite valid, there are still many in whom I have encountered several dichotomy switches, and it is because neither the functions or dichotomies are exactly the same. Even seeming obvious to you that they are the same, you have to take a fresh approach to the theory and not make any orientation to MBTI.
This is not about MBTI, the approach is to step back from both systems and see them for what they are. I never said that MBTI was better than Socionics. Frankly they both have their good and their very obvious flaws.
Not everyone is going to have both Tis or both Ses. For that matter I am glad they called it Ti in socioinics and not something else, because now people will easily start to contrast the two, which is what should happen. If they called Ti, "Structural Logic," I am sure there would be more intention to say it is the same thing as Ti in MBTI. But socionics is not some watered down version of MBTI. It is a new level of self-thought and relationships. Unfortunately it has some unofficial extremities in form of obstacles in the way, being formed into hundreds of new theories. It is a good thing, but many of the theories need to stop making branch upon branch. People need to learn to grow their own trees.
And as I have told followers of the system for years, start with that and build on it. Stop the useless comparisons to MBTI then start stupid arguments of which is better. They are different in their own rights. As for Ti, structural logic, LI, introverted logic or whatever you choose to call it today, if it walks like a duck…… Ti is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti………………….
 

527468

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This is not about MBTI, the approach is to step back from both systems and see them for what they are. I never said that MBTI was better than Socionics. Frankly they both have their good and their very obvious flaws.And as I have told followers of the system for years, start with that and build on it. Stop the useless comparisons to MBTI then start stupid arguments of which is better. They are different in their own rights. As for Ti, structural logic, LI, introverted logic or whatever you choose to call it today, if it walks like a duck…… Ti is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti, is Ti………………….

Yeah, but if you're referring to a system like socionics, only in a quite varied way, I doubt anyone could take you seriously. But it's understood that you have your own system. That is what Ti tries to develop. However upon referring to Ti, people could wonder: what Ti are you talking about? And you have to respond, my own. See I took aspects from both Tis and a little bit of my own, and this is what I think Ti is, and people will notice the originality of that. I've never seen anyone have a perfect idea of what Ti means, nor have I seen two people share the same complete idea. You reach the problem of people saying "I have that," but in fact they don't know what "that" is. If only they could get a few facts straight.
 

"?"

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Yeah, but if you're referring to a system like socionics, only in a quite varied way, I doubt anyone could take you seriously. But it's understood that you have your own system. That is what Ti tries to develop. However upon referring to Ti, people could wonder: what Ti are you talking about? And you have to respond, my own. See I took aspects from both Tis and a little bit of my own, and this is what I think Ti is, and people will notice the originality of that. I've never seen anyone have a perfect idea of what Ti means, nor have I seen two people share the same complete idea. You reach the problem of people saying "I have that," but in fact they don't know what "that" is. If only they could get a few facts straight.
Lemon Ti is Ti is Ti....... As I have told other people at Socionics, dont make claims that the system follows Jung then start saying that the functions are different. I have no vested interest in either system since outside of Jung's work, clearly people who read my posts know that I prefer Berens/Nardi. What can't be taken seriously is the continued argument from Socionics followers that talk outside both sides of the mouth. Either they prescribe to Jung's theory as they advertise or they don't. But don't respond with some silly contention that Socionics does not prescribe to Jung, because I will paste websites all over this damn thread. BRING FORWARD A COGNITIVE DEFINITION (Could care less what you want to name it) THAT DOES NOT ALREADY EXIST AND THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN THOSE CREATED BY JUNG.
 

Moiety

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I challenge anyone to tell me how big my triceps are using socionics. And no cop outs!
 

phoenity

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Original self assessment for me was of the quadra. Not necessarily quadra definitions, but functions of that quadra. I figured out that I was Ni/Se valued and Te/Fi valued, and then that my strengths were N and T. (ENTj or INTp) then after I assessed myself in terms of traditional introversion and extroversion: inward towards self or out towards world. "I am talkative and energized by people" is not a valid socionics lead to extroversion.

People act in ways of peace or stress of peace, or control or lack of control of environment simply based on Si and Se positions for one simplified example of function roles. Sensors often portray both strengths of course, though some can stress these beyond their values, and some can hide their strengths. There have been tendencies like V.I. and the like in which anyone can take notice and agree upon typing, and this happens in forums across the globe. Functions are also divided in terms like object and field, dynamic and static, internal and external. With all these simple terms we can measure ourselves and proceed into the more specific versions of the theory, into personalized self analysis.

Is this what you're asking?

I'm very curious what you mean by this. I think I know where you're going with it, and it might explain my Si vs Se conflict, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.
 

527468

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I'm very curious what you mean by this. I think I know where you're going with it, and it might explain my Si vs Se conflict, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

I mean, if you look at the definition of both
Si.gif
and
Se.gif
, it is said that in socionics, a sensor has strength in both functions, however one is of the Id group, thus mainly unconscious and also unvalued. If one of the positionings is the 8th function, that is when that function can be stressed beyond their values, and you can tell that it is not working out well for that person. It is usually a weakness mixed with a value that gets stressed, such as
Fi.gif
for an INTp, however stress can also occur when someone is consciously making a false impression even on top of their strengths, and I think this is because they miscalculated as to what they are capable of. It seems to take the image of an overshot then a drastic rebound. Hiding strengths is almost just the opposite, where one takes consciousness of an Id function and tries to dominate it with their ego, such as for an INTp, blackening in
Ti.gif
. One example could be to purposefully take in just facts without looking at an internal model of how they are laid out, with the notion that you overlooked a possibility where that model can be applied originally, but also in this new area of thought. Hiding strengths is of a tendency to overlook ones potential, just like it is to stress unvalued areas, and both of these ideas are contingencies within the socionics function model. If we speak of weakness, the superego then causes the most stress and other negative emotions, probably much greater than other groups. A type's values will usually hold the first say as far as I know: more significantly the ego.
 

Poki

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I challenge anyone to tell me how big my triceps are using socionics. And no cop outs!

First we have to know how to measure triceps and which head we are talking about. Do we add them all together and find total length? I can tie it all together, but its useless if I dont know how to measure them.
 

527468

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Agreed. The dual for INFj is actually ESTj. Which I don't understand. I've never had a great relationship with an ESTj. I can agree with the other quadra members (ENFp and ISTp) being good picks, but not ESTj.

Just for the record, you don't have to bash socionics just like that. Duality takes time to develop compared to the other positive relations, sometimes a few years, and then the relationship becomes intensely healthier. So that you have trouble with ESTjs depend on both ends, if you're willing to see through at first, and the other end, the other big issue is a question of maturity, which can actually be the downplay of the seeking functions, yours would be Te and Si. It happens when you just can't seem to relate to people except for on an ego or identical basis, and that means you need to open up. However from my experience, the opening up comes naturally to duals, I say eventually. Lastly of course I'm sure you're sure about your type in the first place. Successful duality relations happen a lot more than any other, without the two knowing about the theory (people here probably wouldn't think so because they study MBTI.) Of course that's what the theory says, but that's what others and I have observed, even with INFj and ESTj. All of this is easily disputable, but it's a very dynamic theory and I can say the relations will take some time to get the hang of. Good things to come.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Just for the record, you don't have to bash socionics just like that. Duality takes time to develop compared to the other positive relations, sometimes a few years, and then the relationship becomes intensely healthier. So that you have trouble with ESTjs depend on both ends, if you're willing to see through at first, and the other end, the other big issue is a question of maturity, which can actually be the downplay of the seeking functions, yours would be Te and Si. It happens when you just can't seem to relate to people except for on an ego or identical basis, and that means you need to open up. However from my experience, the opening up comes naturally to duals, I say eventually. Lastly of course I'm sure you're sure about your type in the first place. Successful duality relations happen a lot more than any other, without the two knowing about the theory (people here probably wouldn't think so because they study MBTI.) Of course that's what the theory says, but that's what others and I have observed, even with INFj and ESTj. All of this is easily disputable, but it's a very dynamic theory and I can say the relations will take some time to get the hang of. Good things to come.

well, i don't see lauren's response (or my previous response) as bashing. indeed, far from it. we were both speaking about our personal experiences with relating, based on identified type.

what is your experience with relating in a str or ltr?

the thing i found difficult to swallow in socionics relationship methodology was more the way it states with certainty how each type relates to another type........for example, for me, calling my successful and deep, loving relationship with an intj as a 'business relationship, not having the complexity to withstand personal relating' (i'm paraphrasing).

i find socionics provides, perhaps, more pieces to the personality puzzle, but all in all i find the relationship ideas promoted by the St Mary's researchers to be most similar to my own human relating, at least regarding ltr. i took this quote off curtis24's (hope you don't mind, curtis) post on the intp forum:

Partner Satisfaction As Measured By the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator
by Nancy S. Marioles, Ph.D.
St. Mary's University researchers, headed by psychologist Nancy S.Marioles, Ph.D asked 426 married and premarried couples to take the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator which measures peoples preferences on how they relate to the world. The authors then compared each type with each spouses' marital satisfaction. A person can have four different types that determine how they deal with the world.

One can be either extraverted or introverted. Extraverted people prefer to relate to people in the outer world rather relating to the inner world of ideas which Introverted people prefer. A Sensing person likes to have known facts to make decisions whereas an iNtuitive person prefers to look for possibilities and relationships that aren't apparent to make decisions. Thinking types like to base their judgments on interpersonal analysis and logic, and Feeling types like to base their judgments more on personal values. Finally, Judging types like a planned, decided and orderly way of life compared to Perceiving types who like a flexible, spontaneous way of life.

The couples were monitored over a seven-year period to determine marital behavior and predictors of satisfaction and divorce. The authors examined how many times each person was married, the length of the marriage, changes of marital status and sources of marital satisfaction and irritation.

The couples, said Dr. Marioles, were most satisfied in their marriage if they both could confide in their mate, share outside interests, calmly discuss and exchange ideas. Premarital couples needed to satisy those areas plus be able to plan together, question each other and kiss each other.

The authors found very little evidence that opposites marry. The only exceptions were ESTJ men married to INFP women and ESTP men married to INFJ women. These two types of men, said the authors, were also the two types who had been married the most often. Men who were INFPs, INFJs and INTPs most often married a female with the same psychological type. Women, on the other hand, who were ENFJs and INFJs married men with the same type.

The researchers also found that female feeling types (mostly ESFJs) were married the longest and that female thinking types (mostly INTP) were married the fewest number of years. Perceiving types were more likely to have divorced than judging types. Extraverts tended to be more satisfied with their relationships than Introverts which didn't take into account their length of marriage or how many times they had been married.

"Our research and the overall trend," said Dr. Marioles,"supports the likelihood that people are more likely to be attracted to and marry someone of the same type then they are a person of the opposite type."

Women were dissatisfied with the marriage most often (33 percent) when they were married to a man who was an INTP; 31 percent were dissatisfied when they were married to an INFS; and 22 percent were dissatisfied when they were married to an ISFP. Only 13 percent of the men were dissatisfied when the women were an ENFJ and 12 percent of the men were dissatisficed when the women were an ENFP.

Marriage And The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator
 

Lauren Ashley

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Just for the record, you don't have to bash socionics just like that.
Bashing? Not at all. I find both MBTI and Socionics insightful. I just disagree with ESTj being my "ideal" partner.

Lastly of course I'm sure you're sure about your type in the first place.
Yes, positive. I'm INFj/EII.
 

Moiety

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First we have to know how to measure triceps and which head we are talking about. Do we add them all together and find total length? I can tie it all together, but its useless if I dont know how to measure them.

Yep, a trained eye is required (to make sense of this drivel :p), no doubt about that.
 

Halla74

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I challenge anyone to tell me how big my triceps are using socionics. And no cop outs!

Good one! Way to push the bubble! :thumbup:
 

527468

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Bashing? Not at all. I find both MBTI and Socionics insightful. I just disagree with ESTj being my "ideal" partner.

But technically you were bashing, even for being so lightly one personal aspect. "Bashing," it's not a bad word, it just needs some attention after the fact. I still stand by what I say in the previous post. I am just hopeful, as it seems like such a powerful connection, those two types, even taken theoretically.
 

"?"

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Just for the record, you don't have to bash socionics just like that.....
I don't think too many bash the system, as much as the people presenting it. As been said they are both okay systems with different points of view. I am suspect of a system claiming who will be your better or worse type as much as I am suspect that MBTI can determine your best career.
 

Unique

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I dunno if I like that one...or the Keirsey one...or the personality page one... :( ;)



I do like the SLE description, the male description is also accurate as far as I am concerned:

SLE male and female - Wikisocion

Interestingly keirsey is my favorite type description for ESTP

But I'd say different ESTPs are going to have different descriptions fit them better, for me the keirsey description fits best
 
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