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Socionics vs MBTI

527468

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Socionics is more complicated, but its also more organized. I think MBTI is for basic understanding. They are both different but there is close correlation to types, not exact correlation, maybe one or two letters off. The functions/positions, relations, and terminology are what is really amazing about this Socionics theory. I love it a lot.

Basically there is a more effective way to estimate J/P types. A J type response is a direct reaction towards another while a P type response depends on the state of mind that had been influenced by others. Js also usually possess calm but long lasting moods while Ps usually possess shorter/stronger moods more impulsively. Js work toward their own view of the world, one that is growing closer to expectation, while Ps except aspects of the world and try to understand as much as they can. Each of these three divisions are logically connected to the idea of rationality and irrationality.
 

Costrin

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it's too late I'm already tearing apart whether I'm INTp or INTj, I tested strong INT, weak p. I read both descriptions and sound a little more INTp (I find it funny that it says many INTps type themselves INTj or INTx).

I'm pretty much accepting INTp... now to figure out how the hell I'm NiTe in socionics..
I'm F--ed:doh:

Yeah I'm torn between the INT Socionics types. I relate slightly more to INTj, but test as INTp.

The worst thing anyone ever did was assign MBTI-like lettering to Socionics types. Way to conflate differing definitions of everything, assholes :doh:

Agree.

Socionics is more complicated, but its also more organized. I think MBTI is for basic understanding. They are both different but there is close correlation to types, not exact correlation, maybe one or two letters off. The functions/positions, relations, and terminology are what is really amazing about this Socionics theory. I love it a lot.

Yeah there's some good insights and interesting perspectives in there.

Basically there is a more effective way to estimate J/P types. A J type response is a direct reaction towards another while a P type response depends on the state of mind that had been influenced by others. Js also usually possess calm but long lasting moods while Ps usually possess shorter/stronger moods more impulsively. Js work toward their own view of the world, one that is growing closer to expectation, while Ps except aspects of the world and try to understand as much as they can. Each of these three divisions are logically connected to the idea of rationality and irrationality.

Intrestin'. I'm still torn, though.
 

527468

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Great indicator for type are the relations. If you can try to figure out everyone elses type by all the rules and terms, you can more easily figure out your type by looking at the 16 relations to the other peoples' type.

Another is the quadra characteristics and relations.
 

527468

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table3.gif

INTJ = ESTp

evilgrin0039.gif
 

JocktheMotie

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The biggest issue I have with INTp function order is I can't get over Ni as a dominant function. And Te as a secondary function. I just don't think it works. Everything else, the other 6, are fine. Ni always comes off as way too mystical a description, and Te... I just don't really see it. I do find that the description of how the Ni+Te functions apply to an INTP behavior is accurate, however half of the Ni description for INTPs could be attributed to Ti instead.

Also, I cannot, ever get over this statement:
However, they tend to be very skeptical of extensively systematic explanations of real-world phenomena. While they readily acknowledge the usefulness of many proven systematic, mathematical, and symmetrical systems in science, they tend to be disdainful of theoretical and practical models that describe an absolute reality or that do not have some empirical basis. The ILI vision of reality, scientific, philosophical, or otherwise, is that of one self-contained universe of too many processes and mysteries to count.

ILIs often reject absolutist explanations, and often fall into a constant cycle of dynamically reevaluating their informational outlook (ie "this may change, but at the moment i sort of am inclined to think the facts suggest that droog is better than blinth, despite these plausible alternative interpretations").

That is not me. At all. I find absolutist explanations beautiful. String theory is gorgeous. Evolutionary theory is gorgeous. That's why I lean towards an INTj type in socionics, simply because the 2 dominant functions fit better, except the rest do not.
 

"?"

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No, they don't switch but don't use your MBTI type to work out your Socionics one, they are defined differently as Costrin said so it's best to start with a blank slate. That said they'll prolly be the same.
Exactly. If you are a Ti-Ne type, then regardless of system you will remain that type since both systems have the commonality of deriving from Jung's definitions. Therefore I am Ti-Se which makes me ISTP in MBTI and ISTj in Socionics. Now that they are moving further from cognitive functions, I may be something completely different. I am curious as to whether anyone has compared the quadras to Keirsey's temperament? Most likely the comparison is futile since the types falling into the four groups are not the same.
 

527468

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Half of INTPs are INTjs! Just to let you know. Socionics and MBTI don't correlate perfectly as already noted.

Functions, functions, functions. Socionics has great functions.

The introverted functions are Stability-driven

The extroverted functions are Initiative-driven

(primary = constant, secondary = situational and changing)

And socionics dichotomies actually make sense with the functions. Where as in MBTI there is more confusion (like how is that extroverted?). Just read around wikisoc some more. You'll get what connections I'm talking about.

This page is cool... Functions - Wikisocion
 

527468

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I'm one of the INTJs who aren't like ESTps. I agree that most INTJs are like ESTps though. I definitely have a few of those characteristics, like firm and decided logic. However it is constant not situational. TP logic is more intense anyway. I definietly like exploring different possibilties (
index.php
Ne) rather than getting the job done (
index.php
Se). I find possibilities too interesting. I'm definitely stability-driven and INTj relations match up well with people I've typed. Definite INTj here.

My uncle is an INTp. Ni with maturity is the same thing as planning and looking forward or backward in time for connections. Knowing what will happen, but not necessarily solving it because of the need for constancy. INTps believe the actual process is too interesting, that they'd learn more by just letting it naturally happen. However they need to make sure that they are secure. A lot like our friend Doctor Manhattan. My uncle happens to be an INTP in MBTI.
 

Snow Turtle

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Socionics is just too complicated to be practical or perhaps I haven't dedicated enough time to understanding how the functions interact with each other. It really doesn't help that I have no reference point however.

The rare occasions where I've moved towards socionics. I end up getting lost as I can't figure out what my own type is, and it seems neither can other people who have spent a fair amount of time studying it.
 

The Ü™

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Socionics or Keirsey are probably the best Jung-based systems. Even though Keirsey has no interest in cognitive processes (and I don't blame him), his type descriptions are very much in line with Jung (especially after you read Psychological Types). And I think Keirsey's PersonalityZone is the best MBTI-related site. Very insightful and detailed.

MBTI was created by two women, thereby severely lessening the instrument's credibility.

Socionics was invented by a Russian woman, so she's pretty much a man.
 

Snow Turtle

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You're referring to subjective practicality.

True.
Hm. I've found it too complicated to be practical. Well actually I lie. I'm just angry at socionics because I can't figure myself out within it. I've tried in the past, and gotten back results from others that I'm INFp, INFj, INTj, ISFj, ISFp... It's insanity.

:doh:
 

527468

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True.
Hm. I've found it too complicated to be practical. Well actually I lie. I'm just angry at socionics because I can't figure myself out within it. I've tried in the past, and gotten back results from others that I'm INFp, INFj, INTj, ISFj, ISFp... It's insanity.

:doh:

It's all relative until you get close enough to logical analysis. Then it is quite systematic until you get close enough to ethical analysis.

The laws of the universe > entities > knowledge and ethics. I'm not saying one is more important. I'm saying the universe is so big that everything is relative when you can view the entire thing, which you can't, and when you get close up you start seeing patterns between objects and ideas. Principles are even closer to subjectivity.
 

simulatedworld

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Exactly. If you are a Ti-Ne type, then regardless of system you will remain that type since both systems have the commonality of deriving from Jung's definitions. Therefore I am Ti-Se which makes me ISTP in MBTI and ISTj in Socionics. Now that they are moving further from cognitive functions, I may be something completely different. I am curious as to whether anyone has compared the quadras to Keirsey's temperament? Most likely the comparison is futile since the types falling into the four groups are not the same.

This seems the most reasonable of any explanation given on this thread thus far.


Socionics or Keirsey are probably the best Jung-based systems. Even though Keirsey has no interest in cognitive processes (and I don't blame him), his type descriptions are very much in line with Jung (especially after you read Psychological Types). And I think Keirsey's PersonalityZone is the best MBTI-related site. Very insightful and detailed.

MBTI was created by two women, thereby severely lessening the instrument's credibility.

Socionics was invented by a Russian woman, so she's pretty much a man.

THANK JESUS CHRIST someone gets this. Doesn't anyone else use MBTI simply for mental categorization of externalized behaviors (and using the trends to guess at future behaviors)? There's a BIG difference between this and actually trying to assign internal cognitive processes to these externalized behaviors! I'm rather tired of being psychoanalyzed to death by people who can't accept the boundaries of their own knowledge--of what is even plausible to claim any real knowledge about. Yes yes, I'm sure you're a real pro at cognitive function psychic readings and all, but you're still limited by the fact that I'M IN MY HEAD and YOU'RE NOT.

At the end of the day, using typology for anything beyond categorization of externalized behaviors is just a cute parlor game, like guessing at celebrity MBTI types. Fun to toy around with, but not very definitive and not particularly useful.
 

Into It

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The answer is quite obvious, if not easy: they are both bullshit in the end

I disagree.

Socionics claims to be able to define a person's type by facial features/bone structure. That is the reason I never took the time to learn it.
 

Into It

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THANK JESUS CHRIST someone gets this. Doesn't anyone else use MBTI simply for mental categorization of externalized behaviors (and using the trends to guess at future behaviors)? There's a BIG difference between this and actually trying to assign internal cognitive processes to these externalized behaviors! I'm rather tired of being psychoanalyzed to death by people who can't accept the boundaries of their own knowledge--of what is even plausible to claim any real knowledge about. Yes yes, I'm sure you're a real pro at cognitive function psychic readings and all, but you're still limited by the fact that I'M IN MY HEAD and YOU'RE NOT.

At the end of the day, using typology for anything beyond categorization of externalized behaviors is just a cute parlor game, like guessing at celebrity MBTI types. Fun to toy around with, but not very definitive and not particularly useful.


It is worth noting that if you take a cognitive function test, which is not based on behaviors, your top two functions will most likely coincide with those of your mbti type's. Try it. It is true that all we can really observe is behavior. However, behavior can be used to determine an internal process. For instance, if I asked you to solve some difficult long division mentally, I could observe your eyes roll up to the sky as you remain motionless and infer that you are not using Se to look at the birds and the clouds but that you are retreating into your own head to use an introverted function, and since I understand that you aren't using interpersonal analysis to solve said division, I have used your behavior along with other information to conclude that you are using Ti. Now, you may be trying to trick me, looking at the clouds while pretending to solve the problem, but when you fail to give me the correct answer, I can assume that either you suck at math or that you were NOT using Ti.

So you aren't entirely wrong, but I think your position is a little too strong.
 
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Socionics claims to be able to define a person's type by facial features/bone structure. That is the reason I never took the time to learn it.

What are you suggesting?
 

simulatedworld

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It is worth noting that if you take a cognitive function test, which is not based on behaviors, your top two functions will most likely coincide with those of your mbti type's. Try it. It is true that all we can really observe is behavior. However, behavior can be used to determine an internal process. For instance, if I asked you to solve some difficult long division mentally, I could observe your eyes roll up to the sky as you remain motionless and infer that you are not using Se to look at the birds and the clouds but that you are retreating into your own head to use an introverted function, and since I understand that you aren't using interpersonal analysis to solve said division, I have used your behavior along with other information to conclude that you are using Ti. Now, you may be trying to trick me, looking at the clouds while pretending to solve the problem, but when you fail to give me the correct answer, I can assume that either you suck at math or that you were NOT using Ti.

So you aren't entirely wrong, but I think your position is a little too strong.

Cognitive function tests are effectively the same thing as regular MBTI tests because they still put the internalized cognitive functions in externalized thought/behavioral terms; the very composition of the test in the form of words that symbolize subjective ideas makes this inevitable. In other words, the two tests ask the same things paraphrased--hence the correlation in results.

We can't breach the barrier of another person's mind to even begin understanding the accuracy of his functional analysis, unless we are deeply involved with that person and have been privy to an exceptional amount of extremely private information, and even then it's still a far cry from pinpointing exact internal cognitive functions with any degree of precision.

Especially on the internet! Sometimes I wonder if people have even the slightest conception of the amount of personality data you're missing when your communication is limited solely to text.

Real brain functions can come in so many different varieties, combining in different ways to cause so many different behaviors for so many different reasons that it's almost laughably naive to pretend that complex human cognitive patterns can be explained completely in two lines by a pop Jungian pseudo-psychology. It's intuitively obvious that it has to be more complex than that, complex enough to make the "I can explain everything that motivates you to do everything" system too idealized for any real use beyond entertainment.

Functions are useful labels to describe, arbitrarily categorize and help understand our own inner selves, but when applied to others with whom we cannot possibly share the same subjective experience, they get pretty fuzzy, pretty quick.

Maybe I should specify that I'm not that big a fan of Jung. He's interesting, but I think by far his biggest contribution was the names in the categorization system and the method by which we categorize the external manifestations of these unknown internal motivations of others.

As for Jung's functional theories, well...there's not much actual evidence to back them, once you try to cross the barrier into interpreting the subjective experience of other people.
 
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