Faux-nobo: “Naked Bonobo” demolishes myth of sexy, egalitarian bonobos

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Faux-nobo: "Naked Bonobo" demolishes myth of sexy, egalitarian bonobos - Incredulous

Apparently, there's a lot of misinformation going around about the bonobo species. We all believed (or want to believe) the "egalitarian bonobo" myth. This is a book review for: The Naked Bonobo: Lynn Saxon: 9781523945511: Amazon.com: Books (not available on audio )

Usually debunkings of pseudoscience and sensational claims are mundane, if satisfying. It usually sounds like “GMOs are fine” or “The psychic is a fraud.” Not this time. The truth about bonobos is more shocking, salacious, and captivating than the lies are. I knew that “Bonobo” was going to concern itself with correcting popular bonobo myths, but there were still many surprises. It’s one of the page-turniest debunkings I have ever read. As fascinating as the material is, Saxon delivers it with a steady grace and restrained humor that keeps it light, but not too light.

“The Naked Bonobo” is dissent done right: civil, competent, and constructive. While mildly cheeky with the “wannabe” framing device, the work is quite even-handed in its tone and charitable to those that it critiques. It contains no insults or recriminations. It foists no strawpersons, working to honestly represent the other side and to identify shared values and common ground where possible.

Saxon’s review of the literature is, by all indications, diligent and conscientious. She sent manuscripts to subject matter experts for feedback. She is quick to caution against hasty conclusions when the evidence is scant or ambiguous. She reminds the reader several times that we yet know very little about bonobos and must wait before getting too attached to notions about what they are like.

I would recommend “The Naked Bonobo” to anyone who cares at all about these apes. But it also stands as a skeptical exemplar that is instructive on how to debunk with integrity and class.

"When the chimpanzee fell from grace as the peaceful vegetarian, who would have thought that lurking in the shadows was another hairy cousin, and a much better one at that."

“The Naked Bonobo” opens with this line. Saxon is retelling the history of the bonobo rise to stardom, but this is also a reminder that early ideas about chimpanzees often turned out to be woefully mistaken. What we know, or think that we know, can turn out to be wrong. That’s why it’s always a bad idea to base a moral value or a political goal on a conception of the facts. It can blow up in your face when that conception proves wrong. It can create a caustic ideology hostile to the truth and to academic inquiry. There is nothing sexy or egalitarian about that.

 

[Typh0n]

Something about Bonobos having a more "ideal" society than regular chimps always felt like ideological manipulation of facts and pushing an agenda to me.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Something about Bonobos having a more "ideal" society than regular chimps always felt like ideological manipulation of facts and pushing an agenda to me.

Agree.

The real ideal ape societies are Gorillas and Orangutans

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, gorillas somewhat more resemble soft patriarchy, while I think Chimps are closer to hard patriarchies.

 

[Typh0n]

Agree.

The real ideal ape societies are Gorillas and Orangutans

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, gorillas somewhat more resemble soft patriarchy, while I think Chimps are closer to hard patriarchies.

To the update - and I thought the beginning of your post was a Planet of the Apes reference.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

To the update - and I thought the beginning of your post was a Planet of the Apes reference.

The original series of films got the species wrong. I was talking to [MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION] about this a couple weeks ago on discord. The original film portrayed the chimps as the rational, peaceful adherents to reason and science, the orangutans as the sort of guardians of tradition and inquisitors who prevent science from discovering anything that will upset traditional society, and the gorillas as the warlike enforcers.

The chimps really should have been the warriors in that movie. Granted, it was written before we knew much of what we know today about the Great Ape species.

 

[Qlip]

I heard that the Western Homo Sapiens isn't as cultured and peaceful as studies have previously reported.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I heard that the Western Homo Sapiens isn't as cultured and peaceful as studies have previously reported.

True. Asians are better, I think. I'm not kidding.

Also, Aboriginal Australians. They're better at math and spatial reasoning, apparently.

 

[Qlip]

True. Asians are better, I think. I'm not kidding.

Also, Aboriginal Australians. They're better at math and spatial reasoning, apparently.

The gf was doing some study for her program on collectivism, which is more prominent in Asian cultures, vs individualism. Fuck it if collectivism doesn't seem more civil and honorable and sustainable, but alas that's not how I am wired. No illusions, I am the problem.

 

[Typh0n]

The original series of films got the species wrong. I was talking to [MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION] about this a couple weeks ago on discord. The original film portrayed the chimps as the rational, peaceful adherents to reason and science, the orangutans as the sort of guardians of tradition and inquisitors who prevent science from discovering anything that will upset traditional society, and the gorillas as the warlike enforcers.

The chimps really should have been the warriors in that movie. Granted, it was written before we knew much of what we know today about the Great Ape species.

Yeah, the gorillas shouldn't have been the warriors but the movie was written at a time when the image of the gorilla was that of King Kong, though the author of the book, Pierre Boulle, says he got the idea from being at the zoo and watching the gorillas and he thought they had quasi-human expressions, and that it had nothing to do with King Kong.

Though I've actually never read the book, I just saw the OG film, plus the sequels (Beneath the Planet of the Apes et al)also the one with Mark Wahlberg lol - HAIL SEIMOS!

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

The gf was doing some study for her program on collectivism, which is more prominent in Asian cultures, vs individualism. Fuck it if collectivism doesn't seem more civil and honorable and sustainable, but alas that's not how I am wired. No illusions, I am the problem.

I wonder if it's type related to feel less inclined toward collectivist thinking.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Yeah, the gorillas shouldn't have been the warriors but the movie was written at a time when the image of the gorilla was that of King Kong, though the author of the book, Pierre Boulle, says he got the idea from being at the zoo and watching the gorillas and he thought they had quasi-human expressions, and that it had nothing to do with King Kong.

Though I've actually never read the book, I just saw the OG film, plus the sequels (Beneath the Planet of the Apes et al)also the one with Mark Wahlberg lol - HAIL SEIMOS!

I read the book after seeing the original film and was a bit disappointed in it. One of the few instances where I think the film version is an improvement. But it is still a solid read.

 

[Edgar]

Also, Aboriginal Australians. They're better at math and spatial reasoning, apparently.

 

[Lark]

Is there some sort of forum prize for hilarious thread title?

I read some off beat topics sometimes but what motivates this sort of reading? I wonder, the sexual habits of primates and egalitarianism? Really?

At least I got a laugh today.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Is there some sort of forum prize for hilarious thread title?

I read some off beat topics sometimes but what motivates this sort of reading? I wonder, the sexual habits of primates and egalitarianism? Really?

At least I got a laugh today.

Just didn't want to jack another thread with an aside:

So my question would be what conditions in pre-352 CE Europe may have contributed to more egalitarian/matriarchal societies? What were your findings? Was there generally an abundance of resources/food and a lack of conflict from outside forces/tribes/invaders?

Several native American cultures were more matriarchal and egalitarian in nature, however some were more patriarchal. It was often dependent on the amount of food and resources and proximity to potentially hostile tribes/states.

Bonobos are very matriarchal compared to Chimps. However, Bonobos live in region with relatively abundant food and resources and few natural predators. Genetically, bonobos and chimps are extremely close.

Glad you were able to laugh today. God bless.

 

[Lark]

Just didn't want to jack another thread with an aside:



Glad you were able to laugh today. God bless.

Its good to laugh, there's a lot of seriousness I cant account for around in what's obviously a pretty crazy time, I mean extrapolating anything from the behaviour or primates and considering it a plan for or concluding material about human nature? They dont even have a verbal culture for God sake!

Do you all see what you're looking like people?! Its a sight!

Loving how the like function lets you see who's making it to the lets align ourselves in case anyone had to even guess party there!

 

[Metis]

Sounds like an interesting book.

It is weird that people use that "promiscuous bonobo vs. murderer chimp" thing as an argument for why we should all reassess the foundations of human behavior and suddenly remake ourselves (in the image of bonobos).

I've seen an article claiming that humans were actually closer to bonobos than to chimps, and suggesting that this idea should give people hope. As though we were all suffering from a collective self-image problem, "I'm a chimp; I was born a chimp, and I'll always be a chimp, and there's no use fighting it", believing ourselves to be a chip off the old chimp block, when in reality, we were all beautiful bonobo swans, just waiting for someone to awaken us to our true nature.

"Oh, thank you, now that I know my true heritage, I can finally let out my inner bonobo, and together, we will heal society."

 

[Cellmold]

"All are chimp, but some are more chimp than others."

 

[Metis]

"All are chimp, but some are more chimp than others."

Chimp Test!

This test will determine whether you're a chimp, a bonobo, or a single-celled organism:

1. Do you have sex with your enemies?

2. Do you slaughter your enemies?

3. Do you consider yourself not to have any enemies?

If you answered yes only to #1, you are a bonobo. Congratulations! If you answered yes only to #2, you are a chimpanzee. You need to find Jesus. If you answered yes only to #3, you are a single-celled organism. Congratulations!

If you answered yes to more than one of the above, you are insane.
If you answered no to all three, you are probably sane.

 

[Warrior]

Chimp Test!

This test will determine whether you're a chimp, a bonobo, or a single-celled organism:

1. Do you have sex with your enemies?

2. Do you slaughter your enemies?

3. Do you consider yourself not to have any enemies?

If you answered yes only to #1, you are a bonobo. Congratulations! If you answered yes only to #2, you are a chimpanzee. You need to find Jesus. If you answered yes only to #3, you are a single-celled organism. Congratulations!

If you answered yes to more than one of the above, you are insane.
If you answered no to all three, you are probably sane.

not true, what about hate sex, and slaughtering home intruders?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Bonobos and chimps are different due to environmental factors, right? Either adapted to their respective environments and this shaped their culture and behavior?