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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Default Birth Order & IQ Differences

    Families' Eldest Boys Do Better on Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by yahoo
    Boys at the top of the pecking order -- either by birth or because their older siblings died -- score higher on IQ tests than their younger brothers. The question of whether firstborn and only children are really smarter than those who come along later has been hotly debated for more than a century...

    ...The average IQ of first-born men was 103.2, they found.

    Second-born men averaged 101.2, but second-born men whose older sibling died in infancy scored 102.9.

    And for third-borns, the average was 100.0. But if both older siblings died young, the third-born score rose to 102.6...
    I guess my question here is, is this actually a significant difference? 2-3 points of IQ maximum (if that)? I suppose there is a bell curve, so a few people won't seem to improve at all while another group will show more significant improvement, but still...

    It reminds me faintly of making a large deal about how someone's cancer rate might be 50% higher than another group's... but if the chance of contracting cancer is only 0.0020% to start with, is 0.0030% really much different, practically speaking, and worth all the hype?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    I think there are more important (and interesting) issues that we should divert our attention to -- like the future of weapon technology and alternative forms of capital punishment.

    And I'm personally more interested in the future of Industrial Light and Magic.

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Families' Eldest Boys Do Better on Tests

    I guess my question here is, is this actually a significant difference? 2-3 points of IQ maximum (if that)? I suppose there is a bell curve, so a few people won't seem to improve at all while another group will show more significant improvement, but still...

    It reminds me faintly of making a large deal about how someone's cancer rate might be 50% higher than another group's... but if the chance of contracting cancer is only 0.0020% to start with, is 0.0030% really much different, practically speaking, and worth all the hype?
    IQ is considered accurate to 15 points. Even using large numbers and averages/medians/whatever, that borders on trivial.

    This is reinforced by the numbers, since they show that it is environmental and can be controlled for. More resources are likely allocated to the earlier kids, meaning this IQ is more crystalized than fluid (ie: more learned than anything else, and could be overcome by simply studying/learning/whatever more).

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    An IQ is like religion, it doesn't really mean anything but you can use it to get others to listen to you.

    I also went to an anti-racism page that claimed that racists have lower IQs than non-racists. Since when does your view towards people have anything to do with intellectual capabilities?

    I smell a bias.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    An IQ is like religion, it doesn't really mean anything but you can use it to get others to listen to you.

    I also went to an anti-racism page that claimed that racists have lower IQs than non-racists. Since when does your view towards people have anything to do with intellectual capabilities?
    That's nice, but we're discussing whether there's any significance in eldest children have 2-3 points more of IQ, not a moralistic stance of what value IQ actually might have, if any, in society.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    More resources are likely allocated to the earlier kids, meaning this IQ is more crystalized than fluid (ie: more learned than anything else, and could be overcome by simply studying/learning/whatever more).
    I was also pondering whether being the eldest simply means that, more often than not, you're forced to take more responsibility for issues and have to develop solutions, whereas the younger ones are slightly more inclined to look to the elder for direction and solutions.

    (I.e., the elder is trained by birth position to develop more innovative skills, creative solutions, and problem-solving skills)

    The increase seen here would seem to be equitable to that sort of training, just a slight increase in thinking skills.

    PS. Obviously I know there's no DATA here... this is pure conjecture on my part. (Suck it up, princess.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    An IQ is like religion, it doesn't really mean anything but you can use it to get others to listen to you.
    IQ means a lot, actually. It is highly correlated with a great many factors.

    I also went to an anti-racism page that claimed that racists have lower IQs than non-racists. Since when does your view towards people have anything to do with intellectual capabilities?
    They are somewhat correct. Casually, racists and ethnocentric behaviour in general indicates a lack of openness, which correlates lightly to IQ. More than that, heavily biased racist individuals are generally very far on the closed side of the curve, which has a stronger correlation to IQ.

    Having said that, the correlation is still pretty weak... but it does exist.

    (FWIW, both are a subset of the individuals willingness to examine their own and others ideas, one of the fundamental correlations to IQ. That is how they are related, in theory.)

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    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    IQ means something... but an average difference of 2 points in IQ between first/second born is negliable considering the normalized standard deviation of IQ tests are fixed at 11. The tiny different there, to me, means nothing more than a sampling error. Unless there's more info given on the data... ie SE/variance, the average IQ scores can't be compared.

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was also pondering whether being the eldest simply means that, more often than not, you're forced to take more responsibility for issues and have to develop solutions, whereas the younger ones are slightly more inclined to look to the elder for direction and solutions.
    I can't really say without knowing what test they used. If this is a g loaded test with both gF and gC, like KAIT, then I'd believe the major contributor would be gC. This would indicate a heavy environmental pressure to learn and wouldn't indicate any ability to actually be inherently 'smarter'. I can't say for sure, however, since the article specifies that the brothers died in infancy - I'd need to see at what point in development the spread was eliminated, and the breakdown of IQ scores between the two factors.

    (I.e., the elder is trained by birth position to develop more innovative skills, creative solutions, and problem-solving skills)
    I keep hearing this but I have my doubts. That's why I need to know what type of intelligence was higher. Twin studies have shown that genetics is far more dominant than environment and in those cases, environment seems dependent on a lot of nurturing factors, not social order. So the gap could exist... but even if it was as high as this article stated, would be extremely minute.

    The only thing I do agree with is that first born trend towards being more responsible and higher job positions. I believe that can be explained through social order. IQ, not so much.

    PS. Obviously I know there's no DATA here... this is pure conjecture on my part. (Suck it up, princess.)
    There is data, the question is what to look for next. That's what NT thinking should revolve around. My complaint is when people, especially NTs, only look far enough to validate their opinion. They build this framework of what it 'must be', then defend it. In my eyes, that's foolish. The goal in discussing is to be challenged. If someone brings up an alternate theory that also fits the data you originally built the theory on, you identify the data that would prove yours or the other's theory and find it. This is impossible when there is no initial data.

    I believe that to be the healthy application of NT personalities. The unhealthy equivalent is to merely construct theories and never validate them. Without the outside pressure, the NT drifts into the same arena that hardcore SJs do, or paranoid flight NFs do... It's not different - draw upon the opposite side to validate your own methodology. I'm certainly not strong enough to be an SJ, to work within the fact checking/data driven environment, but it is healthy to draw upon those same traits to strengthen your preference.

    [/rambling]


    I thought IQ tests used a SD of 15, not 11. WAIS and KAIT both do, anyway.

    (Sampling)
    The sample of 243k+ was more than enough, though I'd want to see what amount of those had elder siblings die in infancy. It should be a rather small group, probably less than 6%, or about 15000 ... and probably only ~900 with two dead siblings in infancy. Just guessing based on child mortality rates.

    Still sufficient, but yah, I'd need to see the spread since there is a clear bias towards military applicants, excluding those that prefer civil service. It is likely that the older ones are more responsible, which could correlate to gC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was also pondering whether being the eldest simply means that, more often than not, you're forced to take more responsibility for issues and have to develop solutions, whereas the younger ones are slightly more inclined to look to the elder for direction and solutions.

    (I.e., the elder is trained by birth position to develop more innovative skills, creative solutions, and problem-solving skills)
    This is logical, but isn't it funny that the media often portrays the youngest as the most intelligent?

    I would say, though, that the firstborn is more likely to be the fatherly/motherly sibling.

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    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    My bad... SD is 15... I don't know where 11 popped into my head from.

    I tried looking for that Science paper that article was referring to... couldn't find any "new research" from the search... a 1960s paper on IQ and birth order popped up though. But it's not overly helpful.

    The thing with IQ is.... just what exactly does "applitude" mean? Does it not intuitively mean the innate ability to learn things quickly? If so, it seems wrong that your up-bringing, which should technically be the only thing birth order can influence (let's leave the utero business out of it), can affect something that's innate.

    Of course you can turn everything around and say IQ isn't strictly innate. Afterall the verbal portions depends on education... even number logics to a certain degree do as well. But it goes against the whole idea that IQ... the G quotient should be "universal"... that culture and background shouldn't matter. I guess I'm just being too idealistic here. =/

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