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Anti-Vaxxers

fetus

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I got my flu shot today, and it reminded me of how strongly I feel about the importance of vaccines. I have difficulty understanding anti-vaxxer logic. Any anti-vaxxers who can provide me with solid, empirical evidence to back up their claims are welcome, because I'm kind of at a loss.

What are your views on vaccination?
 

á´…eparted

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I realllllllly don't being brought into a state of seething rage... Please don't do this to me...

I am very pro-vaccine. I can't say what I genuinely think of anti-vaccine people because I'll violate a bunch of forum rules for being insulting and violent...

The nice version: They're wrong, it's been scientifically, and morally proven that they're wrong in every single way. There is literally no debating this subject. You have to have valid contention for there to be a debate, and there isn't any. It's no different than debating gravity. Seriously. Anti-vaccine pushers are quantitatively harmful to the human population for absolutely no benefit at all.

I will say nothing else in this thread, for the sake of my blood pressure. Because honestly, there isn't anything else that needs to be said anyway.
 

Tellenbach

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It's really a question of statistical significance. When scientists say "there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism", what they are really saying is that there is no statistical difference between the group that is vaccinated and the group that isn't vaccinated with respect to autism rates.

Statistical significance is itself an arbitrary designation. Most scientists use an alpha level of 0.05; an alpha value of 0.05 means that there is a 0.05 chance that the difference is due to randomness, so when scientists say "there is no significant difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated with respect to autism", they aren't really saying that it's impossible for vaccines to cause autism, just highly unlikely (less than 0.05 probability).

It is this tiny uncertainty coupled with anecdotal evidence that's fueling the anti-vaccine movement. It is impossible for science to rule out vaccines 100%, but the statistical evidence suggests it's highly unlikely to be the cause.

Then there are the other folks who aren't against vaccines, but are against giving multiple vaccinations at the same time. Donald Trump, Rand Paul (eye doctor), and Ben Carson (neurosurgeon) all agree that vaccinations should be given over a longer period. Vaccines are basically foreign antigens (proteins from viruses) that elicit an immune response in the body. Some scientists believe that a huge immune response from multiple vaccinations would result in autoimmune diseases like Type I diabetes.
 

fetus

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Surprised this hasn't gotten more replies. Let's talk, guys. This is important. Maybe let's turn this thread into "how to argue an anti-vaxxer." I don't know. I just feel really strongly about this issue.
 

Tellenbach

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The only way to quash the anti-vaccine movement is to find out the true cause of autism and then demonstrate that the components in vaccines are not responsible.

Since no one knows the true cause of autism, it's mildly amusing to me that many are adamant about something they know nothing about.
 

ceecee

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The only way to quash the anti-vaccine movement is to find out the true cause of autism and then demonstrate that the components in vaccines are not responsible.

Not even this would sway the anti-vaxxers I know. Nothing will.
 

Virtual ghost

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I am vaccines friendly for sure.
The producers of vaccines should be legaly bound to produce quality vaccines and their work should be checked regulary, but on the other hand ordinary people should no be allowed too much of a choice.


South-East of me there are a number of countries/areas where poverty has become totally mainstream and because of that vaccinations of population is not regular anymore. What has resulted in reappearance of many diseases after a number of decades. (at least that is what I heard)
 

kyuuei

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I have co-workers at the hospital who don't like the flu shot. It always boggles my mind that we all received education about vaccines and are there to advocate them, and yet there are still people who give all kinds of bullshit things out like:

"Oh but I get the flu every year anyways"
"I always get sick when I get the flu shot"
"I never get the flu"
"It doesn't even cover everything so it doesn't even matter."

I'm very pro-vaccine. Viciously so. It takes everything I have to try having a stance of empathy and understanding for people who are against vaccines. I think they're so far removed from reality and global issues that they can't tell their scarf from their sphincter.

Much as I hate Vox, there is a nice cute article here about empathy going loads farther than criticism. I thought all anti-vaxxers were idiots. Then I married one. - Vox

It makes sense. I saw some stupid picture on facebook floating around as well where "worst case scenarios" were being asked of pregnant ladies wanting natural births, and the responses were like, "A c-section" or "needing an epidural" .. and the whole group was horrified this lady said, "That myself and the baby die." Because having babies seems so routine, people forget it is still a thing that people can die from it. Just like vaccines are so routine, people forget that people die from these diseases and that they're terrible. Match that with a ton of fear-mongering.. and it's enough to sweep up anyone.

I got swept into a slew of things last year--organic food, "clean eating", calorie restrictions before that.. It was all because of fear-mongering. I thought, "What can it hurt to try it?" The reality is it hurts a lot.. it hurts myself, and others, to not put logic and science and analysis before emotional outbursts like panic and fear. The reality is, almost every important situation calls for a logical plan that is backed by standards and science.. and when people react out of pure fear alone, bad things tend to happen. Raw emotion with no logical backbone is flippant and dangerous. It hurts people for the rest of their lives sometimes--ask anyone with an overly emotional trigger-happy mother or father.

And the only way to move the vaccine movement further is to stop the fear. Vaccines and their supporters need to be a place of comfort and not harsh criticism. Vaxxers need to stop the hate, much as it pains me to do so, and take the harder road towards true recovery by empathizing and being ready to help others no matter what. People get tired of being afraid constantly eventually.. and when they do, we need to be a place for them to come. If I knew the only other road between me and McDonalds was Hippy-veggie-menu-farm where they'd scoff and snoot and scoot their feet around about what a loser I am for wanting a Mcdouble I might just eat the mcdouble out of spite, even when I really want to eat hippy-veggie-food-farm.

Anti-vaxxers are not stupid, for all that's worth. It really takes me getting my head around that, because I've supported stupid causes before and I felt stupid as a result. I felt duped, but I take responsibility for my own laziness and stupidity during those times as well. So, it's hard for me to change my empathy to truly be other peoples' empathy. It's not empathy for myself, it's for others.. so I can't treat them like I treat myself. That's the hardest obstacle for me. But I'll get there. Because I really don't want to be the INTJ-forum equivalent of a vaccine supporter.
 

Kas

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Surprised this hasn't gotten more replies. Let's talk, guys. This is important. Maybe let's turn this thread into "how to argue an anti-vaxxer." I don't know. I just feel really strongly about this issue.

It is best to give as much information as you can, but nobody says that it will make them change their mind. Discuss with them if you feel that you can descibe to them how it works or at least advise them to discuss the case with their doctor. Just don't get angry, be calm. I managed to convince one person that their fear is unjustified. The true is I haven't seen one well done (meaning methods and number of patients) medical study proving that vaccines are causing autism or any different disorders. If anyone have one, I would like to read it (who knows). But for now my opinion is clear.

When I fail, I can always make them watch Jimmy Kimmel campaign. Even if they don't agree, maybe it will at least make them laugh for the moment:shrug:
 

Luke O

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Since the anti-vaxxer movement started as an after effect of some british guy who wanted to rubbish the in-place MMR vaccine so he could promote his own, the movement is just sheer stupidity propagating itself by fearmongering. You can't reason with them, they're fucking idiots.
 

magpie

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Maybe if people didn't see autism as an inherently negative thing, there wouldn't be such an (unfounded) fear of causing it.
 

Amethyst

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yeghor

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Dr. Lisa-Maria Kellermayr — targeted by anti-vaxxers — commits suicide

1659245180826.png
 

Totenkindly

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My IQ is 145 and I'm an INTJ and I spend a lot of time keeping up with current events. I'm not dumb or ignorant. But I regularly have stupid and ignorant people call ME stupid because they don't know what the truth is. People who are stupid and ignorant don't know that they're stupid and ignorant because they're too dumb to know. And they think smart, knowledgeable people are the stupid, crazy, ignorant ones if they have a different opinion than themselves. This is called the dunning kruger effect and you can easily look it up on Youtube.
For my having the same IQ as you and being an INTP, as well as someone who has happily gotten all her boosters, wore her mask, and never had COVID yet, your whole "arguing style" only really sounds like you've got a real big chip on your shoulder after falling down the rabbit hole. Someone fell off the train here, that's for sure.

But hey, at this point, like whatever. Don't take the vaccine if you think it will kill you; it's your life. And you just need to accept that some people are going to look at you poorly for taking that stance; that's just reality. Don't get mad about it. Just take comfort in the fact you think you're doing what is best for you. Flipping out about it makes it seem like you're not secure in your viewpoint. You can't control what others think of you, you can only control your own choices.

I had a close coworker who did not take the vaccine, who was in really great health, got COVID, then got an enlarged heart she didn't know about and died in her sleep two months later from the after-effects of having COVID. I still miss her and always will, and she was only in her 30's. It was a terrible loss, especially considering there were ways to prevent it, and it was repeated all across the nation countless times. That's about all I have to say about it.
 

Coriolis

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But hey, at this point, like whatever. Don't take the vaccine if you think it will kill you; it's your life. And you just need to accept that some people are going to look at you poorly for taking that stance; that's just reality. Don't get mad about it. Just take comfort in the fact you think you're doing what is best for you. Flipping out about it makes it seem like you're not secure in your viewpoint. You can't control what others think of you, you can only control your own choices.
I would add that it's more than "your life". It's the life and health of everyone you come in contact with, especially if you do not take other precautions like masking and distancing. If only anti-vaxxers harmed only themselves. Then I could simply write it off as another example of Darwin's law.
 

Totenkindly

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I would add that it's more than "your life". It's the life and health of everyone you come in contact with, especially if you do not take other precautions like masking and distancing. If only anti-vaxxers harmed only themselves. Then I could simply write it off as another example of Darwin's law.
Yes I don't disagree. But I was fighting a losing battle and I doubt they'll go for that line of reasoning, as it hasn't stopped them currently. Plus, COVID has fallen into a routine at this point.

I would agree that vax for other things has been increasing in importance due to how some diseases we thought were gone are now starting to recur again.
 

ceecee

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[misinformation deleted]
It must be hard to believe there are people that do not give a fuck what you do, what you believe or what you think in regards to the vaccine, other than you are assisting in spreading it. But your rants, regardless of the topic, are what make you look crazy, and I have yet to find a single one of you that do more than push You Tube videos and incredibly questionable "research". But it is typical of the rest of your beliefs and motivations - all of which boil down to grievances, imagined or otherwise, fed to you by right wing media and punditry. Anyway I do hope you are successful treating your future cholera with STA-BIL or consumption by huffing kerosene vapors.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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My ex boyfriend was an extreme anti-vaccine person. His reasoning is that he was very suspicious of what they were putting in the vaccines and would list really bizarre things to me that he thought were in vaccines. Then he'd get high on shrooms he'd get from the guy who fixed his van. He didn't trust his father, so maybe doesn't trust what authority gives him, but trusts what his friend does and science be damned? IDK.
 
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