• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

I throw down the gauntlet to the "real" geeks.

Who are you and what do you use?

  • I'm a programmer (inc amateur) and I use Linux/ BSD

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • I'm a programmer (inc amateur) and I use Windows

    Votes: 3 11.5%
  • I'm just a plain ole user and I use Linux/ BSD

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • I'm just a plain ole user and I use Windows

    Votes: 10 38.5%
  • I'm brave and I use Vista!! (joking...)

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • I'm looking forward to Windows 7

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I refuse to answer as I'm too lazy to read this but wanted to click an option anyhow.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • All of the above.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Other (please explain.. it'll only bother me otherwise)

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • Total voters
    26

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
So all you Linux and BSD fans... this may ruffle feathers.

I've tried more flavours of Linux than I have skittles. Each seems to come polished or not in it's own little idiosyncratic world of techno babble. Each finds some drivers and not others and each seemingly insists on standing out from the crowd somehow.

Now I'm not exactly the worlds worst with technology so with hordes of people raving about the qualities of Linux and BSD over windows I thought I'd give it a try (again, for those who read my blog).

The crux of this meander in to my experiments is this, how the freaking quango did anyone ever quantify Linux or BSD as user friendly or indeed an OS than anyone other than a Linux/BSD developer should approach?

I am considering that I may have been windows spoiled but when that is the competition where two click in rapid succession will get you whatever you want (as compared to compiling code and actual text entry) what chance has this plucky little OS got?

In my research I did find that Mac's use an OS with similar roots to Linux. Now isn't that OS supposed to be easier than windows? So how in this quite bleaky, grey and concreted corner of earth did they get that when the rest are so dire in their GUI?

It's not just myself with this approach either, I work with those less computer literate than myself and all of them complain about things being hidden by the computer, how ream after ream of submenu and tick boxes mires them in useless options whilst carefully obfuscating the option wanted. If they saw Linux their brains would melt into goo. Steam would rise from their ears and their eyes would catch fire. Just installing it fills me with the kind of fear I hadn't felt since I'd first approached a PC.. Why can't it use the kind of drive labelling people recognise? Why won't it tell you what's going on or if you're about to screw windows up so far it can't tell if Bill Gates is a good man or a garden implement?

Anyhow, there's a poll with this minor tirade. Thought I'd open some flood gates to find out if Linux really should be kept to the programmers or if there's hope for those of us who consider it extreme to have to program an OS to do something.

yum update, clear all previous options selected and pick from list.
 

spirilis

Senior Membrane
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
2,687
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Having used Linux for the past 12 years in one capacity or another, I will say that UNIX-based O/S's (excepting MacOS X in this statement) are more for "power users" than anything and when introducing them to a non-poweruser/non-programmer type of computer user, one should not expect anything but be happy if they like it.

MacOS X is more my idea of an "O/S to end all O/S's" for desktop users and with what little experience I've had with it I haven't felt like it's stifled me in any way, but again I really don't have much experience with it.

Windows is what it is. I don't use it because it's a "nice user interface", I use it because a lot of applications only work on it. Frankly I prefer my GNOME desktop environment in Ubuntu Linux with multiple virtual desktops and programmed hotkey sequences (using an app called 'keylaunch' for some of them).

I rock the best of both worlds, though -- Linux runs on the baremetal hardware, and Windows XP runs inside a VMware Virtual Machine, so I can use Windows apps when needed.
That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard? ;)
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.
 

spirilis

Senior Membrane
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
2,687
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
That's what I mean though. I'm apt at configuring, bug hunting and such in windows but Linuz just blows me out of the water. There's no real attempt at bridging the whole human-computer gap from what I've seen (though I've just read an article on Mndriva which sounds promising).

Btw, do you have the obligatory beard? ;)

Yeah. I think "programmer power-user" is a better description here. Linux aims to be usable for those who need to use it. Windows aims to bridge the human-computer gap. I don't really see that as Linux's ultimate goal; I see Linux's goal as attempting to get the *most* out of computer hardware, to enable you to do the most possible. Part of that involves giving you the maximum breadth of tools to make use of the computer, and that's where Open Source Software shines (so many free programming languages and frameworks to use).

Whenever I hear about embedded Linux devices like cellphones or simplistic GUI-driven stuff like the eeePC I nod--THAT is more its fancy. Linux should be a state-of-the-art core underneath an otherwise polished and well-engineered interface. MacOS X reminds me of this; a UNIX core with something totally unrelated sitting on top.

I'm a sysadmin so UNIX-based O/S's give me the maximum power for doing what I do--I can write quick scripts to pull off crazy shit, test stuff, use OpenSSH's auto authentication system seamlessly with my scripts, set up automated port forwards to get around odd network/VPN setups, etc. which I can't do (or can't do EASILY, to be certain) in Windows.

Oh and yeah, I sure do have the obligatory beard. My NFP lady friends prefer it too ;)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I've used both for years. My home system is now exclusively XP. But when I get enough cash that I consider discressionary, not earmarked for other things, my next will likely be some Linux variant. I may be dating myself, but the last time I used linux for my home system was a Mandrake install dual-booting with Windows 98. Before that I used slackware, and Windows 95.

I kind-of agree with you. I have lost my patience with sys-admin activities. I was never very good, I just followed directions and they generally worked. But when they don't work, I am not really sure how to debug (other than trying various versions of modules, and searching for FAQs, manuals and User Guides).

For school, I had to deal with Ubuntu in two different occasions.

Once was to attempt to set-up an Ubuntu Virtual Machine on my laptop, and I couldn't figure how to give the virtual machine acess to the network through my firewall. Time was an issue, so I had to gain access to the code for the class in a different way.

The second-time was when I was trying to get the CUDA SDK to run on Ubuntu runing on a project partner's Shuttle PC with an nVidia 8600 GTS card. Beyond the very simple examples in the SDK, I kept getting crashes--suspect something about configuring video memory. After fooling with the drivers (both CUDA versions and 8600 driver versions) for a while, I got into a state where the card was only being recognized a generic, and not even as an nVidia card!! Anyway, we were running out of time, and we could access to CUDA runs in a different way.
Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.
 

spirilis

Senior Membrane
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
2,687
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Oh the whole hardware does my sweede! I had a laptop (fairly recent but not cutting edge by a long chalk) and of all the things to not have a driver for the network card has to be the worst. That and I've yet to see Linux drive WiFi from the box. It's just a constant struggle.

I recall one guy saying that when he bought a new Mac he'd think "Wow, I can't wait to set this up and see what's new" as opposed to a Windows PC where it was more like "I'll get this set up and see what I have to fix". Myself, I find Linux to be in the latter camp.

Having said all of this though, I do take my hat off to those guys. It's not like they're earning millions from it.... perhaps that's where they're going wrong but still for free software it's not that bad.

It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
It is. Linux is always a small project to get going. But I keep reminding myself it's free, and I bear some responsibility for taking up the slack.
I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again... :thinking:
 

spirilis

Senior Membrane
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
2,687
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I guess if I hadn't gone out and bought Windows so it'd either be get it working or go spend money then I'd be more supportive but I have free choice at present between XP, XP64, Visa 64 or seven thousand shades of Linux. With my desktop it's XP64 no question but for the laptop I have more play, I don't need Direct X for example... I'm still however finding Vista a difficult one to turn down. I just wanted a cleaner running OS and as I only use it for internet and email really then Linux should have been a doddle... not so it appears.

I may try this new Mandriva 2008.1 or that PC-Linux OS.... then again I did tell my friend to hit me rather hard if I mentioned trying Linux again... :thinking:

Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Yea this one guy at the local Linux users group raves about PCLinuxOS... never tried it myself. The new Ubuntu is okay but it's ticked me off for more than 1 reason (including the fact that my USB ports aren't working... I'm pretty sly with troubleshooting Linux but this has so far evaded me)
Is there a secret? Is there a shortcut or is the twelve year route a necessity?

;)
 

spirilis

Senior Membrane
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
2,687
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Is there a secret? Is there a shortcut or is the twelve year route a necessity?

;)

It's 12 years of practice (and seeing Linux through all kinds of driver/obscure hardware/library issues/app developers at work doing crazy shit/watching Linux crash & burn under heavy load) , yeah. ;)

A couple hints though:
1. Working knowledge of the C programming language (Standard C, not C++ or C# or Java or anything higher-level like that; Standard C where you have to deal with pointers and no object-orientation). This gives you access to the "language" that all the intimate details of Linux's core speaks. Oh, it also helps to have knowledge of the BSD Sockets interface, which all network-aware apps use to initiate/manage any communication involving networks.
2. Good knowledge of shell scripting
3. Master of the shell prompt, in general.

I don't think it's possible for a good Linux technician to troubleshoot a system without busting out a shell prompt.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I have a mac. I guess that means I'm a total loser as that was not even on the list.
 

sassafrassquatch

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
961
Windows XP power user. I know how to write basic HTML, Vista is an abortion, Windows 7 will be as crappy as Vista and Linux is an attempt to reinvent the wheel by autistic marxists (real men use Unix),
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I use Linux on some of my computers, and Windows on others.

I like configuring Linux and figuring out all the different things you have to do to make it work, for some reason. I'm not a programmer, but I do know how to edit configuration files, have a knowledge of how Linux is organized, how to apply patches, and even fix syntax errors or change pathnames in .h and .cpp files. I'm not sure, but I think I'm about as good with computers on the software side as you can get without actually programming them or specializing in any one thing. I can even use things like "grep," to some extent.

I'm not quite a real geek, but I'm almost there. ;)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I have a mac. I guess that means I'm a total loser as that was not even on the list.
You are evil it's true but you can post yourself under the Linux lot for this purpose. It's all the same really

(waits for distant explosion.....)
Windows XP power user. I know how to write basic HTML, Vista is an abortion, Windows 7 will be as crappy as Vista and Linux is an attempt to reinvent the wheel by autistic marxists (real men use Unix),
Vista is actually a good idea or two... it's just propogated with lots of terrible ideas and really bad final install management!

If you took the core mechanics of Vista without any of the "hey we can do this" I think it'd make a first step to a really good OS. The problem is the whole closed source. M$ finds you "customising" too much, you know like making it work well and stuff, and they'll sue. Can't have people prooving it can be done or worse still having a look at the direct X stuff so linux can have that too!!! :eek:

I do agree though, Linux has that Russian kind of cold war atmosphere to it... ie the technology is good but the interface sucks!
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
It's 12 years of practice (and seeing Linux through all kinds of driver/obscure hardware/library issues/app developers at work doing crazy shit/watching Linux crash & burn under heavy load) , yeah. ;)

A couple hints though:
1. Working knowledge of the C programming language (Standard C, not C++ or C# or Java or anything higher-level like that; Standard C where you have to deal with pointers and no object-orientation). This gives you access to the "language" that all the intimate details of Linux's core speaks. Oh, it also helps to have knowledge of the BSD Sockets interface, which all network-aware apps use to initiate/manage any communication involving networks.
2. Good knowledge of shell scripting
3. Master of the shell prompt, in general.

I don't think it's possible for a good Linux technician to troubleshoot a system without busting out a shell prompt.
That's the problem then. I'm on lowly Visual Basic and such. I expect words that mean something... totally weird like that ;)

The scripting thing is what throws me everytime. Is it just me or are they just avoiding the word programming incase it scares people off?
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I use Linux on some of my computers, and Windows on others.

I like configuring Linux and figuring out all the different things you have to do to make it work, for some reason. I'm not a programmer, but I do know how to edit configuration files, have a knowledge of how Linux is organized, how to apply patches, and even fix syntax errors or change pathnames in .h and .cpp files. I'm not sure, but I think I'm about as good with computers on the software side as you can get without actually programming them or specializing in any one thing.

And the beard?

How's that coming along?
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
And the beard?

How's that coming along?

If it's any consolation, I'm not as into Linux now that I know how most of it works and have done most of the things I wanted to know I could do in it... and now mostly use Windows again, simply for the applications available. I just happen to use it still.
 

sassafrassquatch

New member
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
961
Vista is actually a good idea or two... it's just propogated with lots of terrible ideas and really bad final install management!

If you took the core mechanics of Vista without any of the "hey we can do this" I think it'd make a first step to a really good OS. The problem is the whole closed source. M$ finds you "customising" too much, you know like making it work well and stuff, and they'll sue. Can't have people prooving it can be done or worse still having a look at the direct X stuff so linux can have that too!!! :eek:

Vista seems to be perfectly fine under the hood I just hate what MS has done to the interface. I don't like having it rendered by the GPU, Windows Classic in Vista looks like ass, the menu bar belongs above the tool bar and the tool bar is now static and unchangeable. The Control Panel is completely disorganized and requires more clicks to do things than in XP. Aero looks like foggy plastic rather than glass and Segoe UI is illegible to my eyes, Tahoma or MS Sans Serif is ideal. The new icons are very pretty though.

I do agree though, Linux has that Russian kind of cold war atmosphere to it... ie the technology is good but the interface sucks!

I kind of like the way KDE, Gnome, X11 and the other window managers look, my beef is more with the silly Open Source ideology and it's irrational hatred of commercial software. The best open source application available is Firefox and its code base is derived from Netscape which was commercially developed. I pirate Windows, MS Office and Photoshop so I could give a shit if my programs are "free as in speech."
 
Top