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Disparity Between Scientists and General Public on Scientific Views

sprinkles

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We need literacy but we cannot settle with it being on the level of "See Spot Run!" which is about where it sits a lot of the time.

A lot of people know just enough to be dangerous and that is a problem. It'd be better if they either knew more or less or even nothing, because right now we have this limbo where people know just enough to be a problem for other people, like some kind of knowledge virus. We either need more knowledge so that people are inoculated, or less knowledge so that the 'virus' simply dies.
 

Tellenbach

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No offense, but the "let the experts decide, since they know best" position smacks of elitism. If scientists can not communicate their findings to the general public, then that is their fault and their problem, not ours.
 

Xander

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The public has the interest. If they didn't, they would not be so quick to latch onto so many crackpot speculations mispackaged as "science". It's not a matter of scientists not wanting to be bothered to correct this; we are simply the wrong tool for the job, or at least we need many others to do it right. Look at any product, from something simple like paper towels to something complicated like GPS units or pharmaceuticals. The people who develop and deliver the advertising for these are not the same people who developed and now produce the actual products. They are people with expertise not in science and engineering but rather in economics, marketing, psychology, writing, art, etc. Ideally they work with scientists and engineers to gain a basic understanding of the product, which they can then pass on to the general public. (I realize much of advertising is designed to manipulate rather than pass on genuine information. I am giving it the benefit of the doubt for this exercise, considering it in its idealized form of helping the public become familiar with a "product" so they will understand its benefits.)

And yes, we need to get those who "don't do well at science" to understand some basic level of science, just as we encourage people who are completely non-athletic to maintain some basic level of physical fitness, we expect people with no literary gifts to be able to read and write, and we expect people who will never go into politics or run a business to have a basic understanding of how our government and economy function. It's as simple as that, and as difficult.

While all true in the modern world you're not really looking at whether this is the best solution. I've done sales and the easiest sell is when you want what you are selling. I sold plenty of graphics cards purely in the basis that I wanted a new graphics card. Of course the overwhelming urge to research which one helped enormously but most people don't do their research, they want convenience.

Hence it is with science. They will devour what matches their world view and dismiss all else.

As someone knowledgeable if time slows as you reach light speed and many will nod and say yes. Ask them why and they scratch their heads and give all kinds of weird answers. Not one person has postulated that what the common man considers as time is not that is being measured.

Ask someone without good reading and they have no interest whatsoever. Why then would they bother to research the latest in chemistry? Hell, all the discussion about time travel around films and so few consider it past its story telling applications.

Consider a more polarised example. People buy things like designer handbags. Why? Because they are designer. No one asks what's the extra value or why they should pay more. They accept the world as sold because that is what they are conditioned to do. To question is hard work and they want an easy life. Hence if a paper tells people that immigrants are taking all the best jobs, houses and benefits then scores will adopt it. Few of them ever ask "if ten thousand people move in, how many new jobs are created to look after them?".

The track record is long. A person is a reasoned and thinking being. Capable of compassion and understanding. People are nervous, reactionary and instinctual. Likely to round on anything new and different with great fervour.

As for who to do this feat,there are many instances of the guy with the skills to make the goods being the best guy to sell the goods. Science is no different in this marketplace. It's just another commodity.

Of course you could remove the sales side by cooperation but that muddies the water on Nobel prizes and new grants. If you're going to be competitive, you have to play the game. If you're not then you have to find another way of funding what you're doing.
 

Passacaglia

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The solution is to use market based forces to fund science. When you have politicians awarding grants for scientific research, that research becomes corrupted and agenda driven. How likely is it for climate change skeptics to get government funding for their research? They don't and that is why most most climate scientists are believers.
Judging by all of the politicians, pundits, and businessmen who are hellbent on denying global warming, come hell or highwater, pretty darn likely.

No offense, but the "let the experts decide, since they know best" position smacks of elitism. If scientists can not communicate their findings to the general public, then that is their fault and their problem, not ours.
No offense, but in the short time that I've been a TypeC member, I can confidently say that if you were to simply reply to any even tangentially-political topic with an ellipses, we would all be able to mentally fill in your thoughts on the topic. "Deregulate it!...Free market solutions!...Elitism!"

But please, continue your pontification.
 

Coriolis

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While all true in the modern world you're not really looking at whether this is the best solution. I've done sales and the easiest sell is when you want what you are selling. I sold plenty of graphics cards purely in the basis that I wanted a new graphics card. Of course the overwhelming urge to research which one helped enormously but most people don't do their research, they want convenience.

Hence it is with science. They will devour what matches their world view and dismiss all else.
I'm sure you know people who are interested in and even excited by science, but don't want to commit to it as a career. These are the folks who often end up in marketing, high-tech consulting, technical writing, etc. Same with sports and entertainment. Just consider all the folks working as agents, business managers, and producers for professional athletes, actors, musicians, etc. They want to work in or close to the field without being an actual athlete or performer. We have some of the science and engineering equivalent in my organization, and they are worth their weight in gold provided we keep them on the straight and narrow. This is our part of the job: to give them good information, to answer all of their questions so they understand it themselves, and to help them revise the content so it is understandable to someone without a scientific degree while still being accurate. I don't see how scientists doing all this alone would be a better approach.

Consider a more polarised example. People buy things like designer handbags. Why? Because they are designer. No one asks what's the extra value or why they should pay more. They accept the world as sold because that is what they are conditioned to do. To question is hard work and they want an easy life. Hence if a paper tells people that immigrants are taking all the best jobs, houses and benefits then scores will adopt it. Few of them ever ask "if ten thousand people move in, how many new jobs are created to look after them?".
This is exactly why I described my advertising model as idealized. It works only when one's goal is true informing, or even education, rather than simply making a buck as the handbag vendor wants.

As for who to do this feat,there are many instances of the guy with the skills to make the goods being the best guy to sell the goods. Science is no different in this marketplace. It's just another commodity.
This works with science, or handbags, in small scale situations when the buyer and seller can exchange information directly, and have a two-sided discussion. Yes, the seller/maker knows the product best, but the less the consumer knows, the more attempts the seller must make to get his/her point across. This is what I do in my community outreach activities. Large scale communication is much more one-way and short-lived. The seller might have just a (literal) minute to make his/her point. If he/she is not well-schooled or even talented in how to do this, the message will be lost. This is what the people in our education and PR offices do, using input from people like me.

Of course you could remove the sales side by cooperation but that muddies the water on Nobel prizes and new grants. If you're going to be competitive, you have to play the game. If you're not then you have to find another way of funding what you're doing.
Here you're mixing apples and oranges a bit. Competing for research funding takes a different skill set and type of information than educating the public at large on the nature of science. This first is a task best done by the scientists and engineers themselves, and tends to be evaluated by people with the education and experience to understand the information presented.
 

sprinkles

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No offense, but the "let the experts decide, since they know best" position smacks of elitism. If scientists can not communicate their findings to the general public, then that is their fault and their problem, not ours.

Scientists can communicate fine. Other people suck at understanding. This is a language barrier and translating things into layman is like Google translating Japanese - a lot of information gets lost.

The fact that we have droves of people running around abusing thermodynamics and quantum observer effects is a huge testament to this.

"IF ENTROPY NEVER DECREASES THEN HOW DO WE HAVE AIR CONDITIONERS HERP DERPY DERP"
 

Tellenbach

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Passacaglia said:
Judging by all of the politicians, pundits, and businessmen who are hellbent on denying global warming, come hell or highwater, pretty darn likely.

I'll take that as a "I don't know." That's ok. I don't know either. According to Suzanne Goldberg of the UK Guardian, it's $900 million/year from various conservative foundations. These are not government sources. I do know that climate change believers got $100 billion over the past decade.

'Dark Money' Funds To Promote Global Warming Alarmism Dwarf Warming 'Denier' Research

Passacaglia said:
"Deregulate it!...Free market solutions!...Elitism!"

These are terrific solutions for what ails us, including bad science and a gullible public.

sprinkles said:
Other people suck at understanding.

Don't you think it's their job to explain it so that layman can understand it? After all, it's taxpayers who pay for much of this research.
 

sprinkles

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Don't you think it's their job to explain it so that layman can understand it? After all, it's taxpayers who pay for much of this research.

No. Their job isn't to explain anything. Explaining things to laymen isn't even practically useful to begin with. What exactly is the point? To satisfy their curiosities?

A scientists job is first of all to do science. Secondly they might teach science so that other people can do science. Putting some stuff in a magazine so that you can sit in a chair and read it and say "that is interesting" and then do absolutely nothing with the information is dead last on the list. Be lucky it gets on the list at all.
 

sprinkles

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[MENTION=20113]Tellenbach[/MENTION]

And yeah, when they discover a new disease or new planet or whatever, that gets passed around. Big discoveries are headline science which is kind of an exception. But most of science is really not that interesting to begin with and a very large fraction goes pretty much untold to the public. So really no, their job is not to explain anything, and even if they did explain, a lot of people aren't going to care because it is way beyond their experience.
 

Xander

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Here you're mixing apples and oranges a bit. Competing for research funding takes a different skill set and type of information than educating the public at large on the nature of science. This first is a task best done by the scientists and engineers themselves, and tends to be evaluated by people with the education and experience to understand the information presented.
Competing for research funding within the existing community is perhaps different but in the open market it would be the same.

I also fail to see how you've got these acolytes who you've spent the time and effort to ensure that they understand your work but they are I'll equipped to defend it against other scientists/ academics.

The general populace can and will ask the most challenging questions in the same way a child can get an adult all crossed up. You need someone who knows the subject inside out to adequately answer the questions and also you want someone who's not polished for them to be credible. It's an American thing with the million dollar smile so maybe that works for you but here you'd get further looking like Einstein than some fashion model.

What's this community outreach thing?
Must admit that came as a surprise because up until that point you were coming across like "normal" people should be kept at arms length preferably sterilised and sanitised.
 

Coriolis

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Don't you think it's their job to explain it so that layman can understand it? After all, it's taxpayers who pay for much of this research.
Communication is a two-way street. Scientists need to consider their audience when explaining things to the public, and frame their explanations using terms the public is more likely to know. The public, on the other hand, have to make an effort to understand, which includes focused listening, asking questions, and taking their original education seriously to begin with. It's the scenario of the horse at the drinking trough again, which I think someone else already pointed out.
 

Coriolis

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Competing for research funding within the existing community is perhaps different but in the open market it would be the same.

I also fail to see how you've got these acolytes who you've spent the time and effort to ensure that they understand your work but they are I'll equipped to defend it against other scientists/ academics.

The general populace can and will ask the most challenging questions in the same way a child can get an adult all crossed up. You need someone who knows the subject inside out to adequately answer the questions and also you want someone who's not polished for them to be credible. It's an American thing with the million dollar smile so maybe that works for you but here you'd get further looking like Einstein than some fashion model.
Science proposals don't exactly compete on the open market. The questions asked and the criteria for ranking are often different from what the public will ask. Just because a question is "difficult" doesn't mean it is good, or useful in determining which research activity to fund. It may, on the other hand, be immensely valuable in clearing up a popular misconception, or encouraging interest in science. Yes, for one-on-one discussions with questioning laymen, personable scientists are probably the best bet. I hope you are not assuming that this is the sum total of what needs to be done, however. Your characterization of science eduation and PR staff as "acolytes" is needlessly demeaning, and contributes to the very elitism you would probably criticise in scientists. I have explained their function in helping to translate science for the public. I suppose you would have us do away with linguistic translators as well, and require us to read papers from Russia and China in the native language.

What's this community outreach thing?
Must admit that came as a surprise because up until that point you were coming across like "normal" people should be kept at arms length preferably sterilised and sanitised.
In earlier comments I stated:
The problem is not making science explicable to the public, it is educating the public to the point where they can have at least a rudimentary understanding of what science is and how it works

we need to get those who "don't do well at science" to understand some basic level of science

I'm not sure how you get keeping people at arms length out of this. It is precisely because I do engage in this sort of outreach and have done so for years that I understand how significant its limitations are -- how few people we can reach this way. I also see the broader influences that work to undermine these efforts - where one prominent or popular person, ignorant of knowledge but skilled in appealing to the public can spread misinformation that takes years or more to correct. What I'm saying is we need to use some of these public communication skills to promote an understanding of science, and they are developed principally by people who make that their career, not by scientists.
 

sprinkles

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Competing for research funding within the existing community is perhaps different but in the open market it would be the same.

I also fail to see how you've got these acolytes who you've spent the time and effort to ensure that they understand your work but they are I'll equipped to defend it against other scientists/ academics.

The general populace can and will ask the most challenging questions in the same way a child can get an adult all crossed up. You need someone who knows the subject inside out to adequately answer the questions and also you want someone who's not polished for them to be credible. It's an American thing with the million dollar smile so maybe that works for you but here you'd get further looking like Einstein than some fashion model.

What's this community outreach thing?
Must admit that came as a surprise because up until that point you were coming across like "normal" people should be kept at arms length preferably sterilised and sanitised.

Most people don't ask a lot of questions about science because the vast majority of science is about having a little more memory in your smartphone or a processor that is just slightly faster or shaving 10% off your gas mileage. Nobody really asks how it works, they just know they want it when it comes out. That's like most of the publicly viewable science right there.

The rest is pretty much industry, medicine, astronomy and applied physics. Better lubricants and faster servos and how does this chemical that nobody has ever heard of effect rats and cataloging Kuiper belt objects and galaxies and stuff which are so numerous that the majority of them just have numbers for names.
 

Xander

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No. Their job isn't to explain anything. Explaining things to laymen isn't even practically useful to begin with. What exactly is the point? To satisfy their curiosities?

A scientists job is first of all to do science. Secondly they might teach science so that other people can do science. Putting some stuff in a magazine so that you can sit in a chair and read it and say "that is interesting" and then do absolutely nothing with the information is dead last on the list. Be lucky it gets on the list at all.
An argument to remove science if ever I've heard one.
If you remain apart from all else non science then you are useless. A limb which has wasted and should be cut to save the patient.

Science does not exist for its own amusement despite all the pontificating and self importance.

Perhaps you think of science as academic in both senses of the word?

If you don't explain things to a layman then scientists need to do every job that follows from their research right up until they use their new dohickey liquid to clean the toilets.
 

sprinkles

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An argument to remove science if ever I've heard one.
If you remain apart from all else non science then you are useless. A limb which has wasted and should be cut to save the patient.

Science does not exist for its own amusement despite all the pontificating and self importance.

Perhaps you think of science as academic in both senses of the word?

If you don't explain things to a layman then scientists need to do every job that follows from their research right up until they use their new dohickey liquid to clean the toilets.

People who need to know end up knowing because they make it their business. You're reaping the benefits of science by using the internet right now. Is it incredibly important for you to know how it works? How about your computer or whatever device you're using. Do you want some white papers on all that? Want to know how MOSFETs are made? I can teach you. I can teach you how to make them in your kitchen.
 

Xander

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People who need to know end up knowing because they make it their business. You're reaping the benefits of science by using the internet right now. Is it incredibly important for you to know how it works? How about your computer or whatever device you're using. Do you want some white papers on all that? Want to know how MOSFETs are made? I can teach you. I can teach you how to make them in your kitchen.

But from your prior argument surely I should be asking "why would you bother?".

As it so happens I tend to be interested in why and how with everything. That's how I know how little others do it from how much I get bitched at for doing it.

"why can't you just do it? "
" why do you have to make everything so complicated? "
" why can't you just accept it? "
Not the voices of people I'd put faith in to do their research.
 

sprinkles

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But from your prior argument surely I should be asking "why would you bother?".

As it so happens I tend to be interested in why and how with everything. That's how I know how little others do it from how much I get bitched at for doing it.

"why can't you just do it? "
" why do you have to make everything so complicated? "
" why can't you just accept it? "
Not the voices of people I'd put faith in to do their research.

The point was you get the benefits regardless of whether you know or not. Scientists make life very nice for you without ever saying a word so I'm saying that your premise that science should be cut off because it's useless if it doesn't explain things to you is entirely faulty.
 
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