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  1. #141
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I do agree that emotional attachment to information is not only unnecessary but counterproductive. I don't see trust as an emotional matter, though, at least not in relation to the information one uses in making decisions. By "trust" here I mean more of a confidence level. There is very little we can know with 100% certainty, but we can often have some idea of how reliable information is based on its source, our familiarity with the topic, and whatever internal consistency checks we are able to do on it. Not foolproof, but helps one to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
    Yeah I figured it was probably a misunderstanding of word choices.

  2. #142
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Interesting... Personally I take nothing as 100% certain as that only seems to reduce the likelihood that the outcome is correct.

    I did used to get emotionally invested in ideas but I'm learning to just take the approach that I believe I'm right currently but I'm prepared to be proven wrong and move to a new position of being right later. For me there is little in the way of external verification so I use my own analysis of what is to establish what is right. I guess this affords me to luxury of being almost immune to critique as I haven't anchored myself to anything.

    I guess the most logical question following that would be "why would you if all it lends is characteristics which people can use to deconstruct your idea/ position?".

    Perhaps that's the issue with "scientists". They've hung their hat with any old crackpot who wants to call themselves a scientists and in doing so have undermined their own work.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #143
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Modernity is the search for origins whether it is biology and life, physics and energy and matter, or astronomy and the universe, or consciousness, or the origins of personality.

    The search for origins in biology and life gave us The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. Physics gave us Quantum Mechanics. And astronomy gave us Relativity and the accelerating expansion of the universe. And interestingly, archeology gave us The Origin of Consciousness. And psychology gave us The History of Childhood.

    We have found there is a great difference between the modern account of origins and the traditional account of origins. This seems to be true from everything from religion to gender to personality.

    The public is only aware of the traditional account of origins and don't even speak the language of modernity which is mathematics and statistics.

    Indeed the public is somewhat offended by mathematics and statistics and seem to believe they are a conspiracy against them, simply because they don't understand them.

  4. #144
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Interesting... Personally I take nothing as 100% certain as that only seems to reduce the likelihood that the outcome is correct.

    I did used to get emotionally invested in ideas but I'm learning to just take the approach that I believe I'm right currently but I'm prepared to be proven wrong and move to a new position of being right later. For me there is little in the way of external verification so I use my own analysis of what is to establish what is right. I guess this affords me to luxury of being almost immune to critique as I haven't anchored myself to anything.

    I guess the most logical question following that would be "why would you if all it lends is characteristics which people can use to deconstruct your idea/ position?".

    Perhaps that's the issue with "scientists". They've hung their hat with any old crackpot who wants to call themselves a scientists and in doing so have undermined their own work.
    I look at it this way. Let's say you have a robot with basic avoidance logic which uses an ultrasonic sensor. The robot is running into walls when it shouldn't. Diagnostic reading says the sensor is wrong, but it could be the logic chip which is wrong. Which do you trust?

    To me, if I 'trust' the sensor, that means even if it appears to be wrong I must assume it is correct. For all I know it might not actually be wrong, something else could make it appear wrong such as a faulty math processor. So if I trust the sensor then I must look for the problem elsewhere. But in actuality it is usually best to rule out the most obvious problems first - if the sensor seems broken, I shouldn't just trust it i.e. I shouldn't assume it is right even if it appears wrong but rather I should test the sensor directly. If it turns out the sensor was right after all then that is good and I know the problem is somewhere else.

  5. #145
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I look at it this way. Let's say you have a robot with basic avoidance logic which uses an ultrasonic sensor. The robot is running into walls when it shouldn't. Diagnostic reading says the sensor is wrong, but it could be the logic chip which is wrong. Which do you trust?

    To me, if I 'trust' the sensor, that means even if it appears to be wrong I must assume it is correct. For all I know it might not actually be wrong, something else could make it appear wrong such as a faulty math processor. So if I trust the sensor then I must look for the problem elsewhere. But in actuality it is usually best to rule out the most obvious problems first - if the sensor seems broken, I shouldn't just trust it i.e. I shouldn't assume it is right even if it appears wrong but rather I should test the sensor directly. If it turns out the sensor was right after all then that is good and I know the problem is somewhere else.
    True. Would you not say though that although you "shouldn't" run into walls according to your desired goals that it has become necessary to achieve them?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #146
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Modernity is the search for origins whether it is biology and life, physics and energy and matter, or astronomy and the universe, or consciousness, or the origins of personality.

    The search for origins in biology and life gave us The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. Physics gave us Quantum Mechanics. And astronomy gave us Relativity and the accelerating expansion of the universe. And interestingly, archeology gave us The Origin of Consciousness. And psychology gave us The History of Childhood.

    We have found there is a great difference between the modern account of origins and the traditional account of origins. This seems to be true from everything from religion to gender to personality.

    The public is only aware of the traditional account of origins and don't even speak the language of modernity which is mathematics and statistics.

    Indeed the public is somewhat offended by mathematics and statistics and seem to believe they are a conspiracy against them, simply because they don't understand them.
    Like all religions, they offer certainty despite contradiction.

    Like all religions they have their followers and their opponents. Declaring your new God as superior to all others is literally as old as the hills.

    I would have thought that someone who spends a significant amount of time decrying the MBTI (on a forum dedicated to it no less) would understand that.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #147
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    True. Would you not say though that although you "shouldn't" run into walls according to your desired goals that it has become necessary to achieve them?
    What? No. I can imagine trying to explain that to an employer or customer. "All these errors are necessary to achieve my goals"

    "Oh really? You're fired."

  8. #148
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    What? No. I can imagine trying to explain that to an employer or customer. "All these errors are necessary to achieve my goals"

    "Oh really? You're fired."
    That leads to insulated thinking and a lack of innovation. You stagnate for fear of doing something other than the expected.

    A good boss plans for failure in the search for improvement. A poor one blames employees for failing when they are trying.

    Believe it or not but it's the boss' job to insulate the business from any failures not the employees job to never make one.

    Seriously though, this goes to the old saying "if you never did anything wrong then you weren't trying hard enough".
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #149
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That leads to insulated thinking and a lack of innovation. You stagnate for fear of doing something other than the expected.

    A good boss plans for failure in the search for improvement. A poor one blames employees for failing when they are trying.

    Believe it or not but it's the boss' job to insulate the business from any failures not the employees job to never make one.

    Seriously though, this goes to the old saying "if you never did anything wrong then you weren't trying hard enough".
    I never said anything about not doing things wrong. Mistakes are incidental. You made it sound like everyone should make them on purpose and that they're not still in general to be avoided even though they some times bring upsides.

    Without insulation you get short circuits and shit starts blowing up and catching on fire.

  10. #150
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I never said anything about not doing things wrong. Mistakes are incidental. You made it sound like everyone should make them on purpose and that they're not still in general to be avoided even though they some times bring upsides.

    Without insulation you get short circuits and shit starts blowing up and catching on fire.
    It's just the assumption that doing it wrong is to be avoided almost at all cost which sets my heckles off. I'm with Socrates, assuming I know nothing. Ergo hitting the wall could be the right result. If the robot hit the wall ten thousand times in trial but never once on a customer then I'd call that a win, the other way around I'd call a fail. It all depends on where you're trying to get to and what you're prepared to do to achieve it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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