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  1. #131
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    We also can't truly trust data that we don't gather ourselves.
    What, then, do you do when you go to the doctor? Ask him/her to show you the medical journal papers and studies behind his/her diagnoses and prescriptions? Even that wouldn't be good enough, since you would not have conducted the reported clinical trials yourself. We cannot go through life trusting only those data we gather ourselves.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  2. #132
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What, then, do you do when you go to the doctor? Ask him/her to show you the medical journal papers and studies behind his/her diagnoses and prescriptions? Even that wouldn't be good enough, since you would not have conducted the reported clinical trials yourself. We cannot go through life trusting only those data we gather ourselves.
    You don't go to the doctor for data, you go for a diagnosis/prognosis. There's a difference.

    To make this comparison would have to be like the doctor running the tests but giving you the raw results to interpret and diagnose yourself.

    That's what a lot of people seem to be thinking - that they can interpret the data. That essentially they could walk into a doctors office and diagnose their own self, or moreover tell the doctor what is right. And why shouldn't they, hmm? Why can't you just test yourself and give the doctor your results and tell them what's what? They should trust you, shouldn't they?

    Or maybe not because it's their profession and people's lives depend on getting things right. You think it's ok to just trust people because you're maybe not the one who gets blamed if it turns out wrong.

    This is so easy to say when it's all about meaningless opinions and worthless conversations which achieve nothing.

  3. #133
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    I go to a doctor because I trust the doctor's interpretation of the data.

    I trust a source for the same reason.

  4. #134
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I go to a doctor because I trust the doctor's interpretation of the data.

    I trust a source for the same reason.
    If I'm not mistaken we go to doctors for practical reasons such as "I'm sick and I need to be looked at so I have to trust somebody"

    Looking at journals which don't actually concern you is another story. You can afford to be discerning. What purpose does it serve to form hard opinions on things you'll never actually do anything about? Do you get points for it or something?

  5. #135
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Also most people don't like to think they're being misled so of course you think you can trust your sources. Almost everybody does. But trust is not equal to rightness.

    Edit:
    And it doesn't feel good to trust someone only to find out you shouldn't have. I've been burned too many times and had too many real world problems due to somebody/something giving me the wrong input to such an extent that it's easier to find out for myself than to vet someone else enough that trusting them becomes low risk. I've been made to look like an idiot, lost money in damages, and possibly caused problems for others by giving bad advice that I thought was good.

    I don't want to make any more hard choices than I have to and at this point I'd rather be unsure than wrong.

  6. #136
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I don't want to make any more hard choices than I have to and at this point I'd rather be unsure than wrong.
    If uncertainty leads to indecision, the default of taking no action can be very wrong, whether in a matter of one's personal health, or a matter of global health or public safety. It all depends on how long a view one takes, and how concerned one is about people beyond oneself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #137
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If uncertainty leads to indecision, the default of taking no action can be very wrong, whether in a matter of one's personal health, or a matter of global health or public safety. It all depends on how long a view one takes, and how concerned one is about people beyond oneself.
    I don't recall mentioning taking no action as a default rule. I do what I feel is necessary and take responsibility for it. I play majan so I know all about acting on incomplete information. Some times you have to make choices. I just won't pretend to be more informed than I actually am.

    On the other hand I've played with programming and robot logic so I know how important accuracy can actually be because this is a great field for seeing exactly how problematic even the tiniest of errors can be. I barely even trust myself if I don't pore over something and recheck it many times. In fact I don't trust myself which is why I recheck things because too often I've left something off because I was tired or in a rush. I'll believe I did it right when I prove it to myself.

    Edit:
    Also if I seem hard on people, I'm even harder on me.

  8. #138
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I don't want to make any more hard choices than I have to and at this point I'd rather be unsure than wrong.
    A small drive-by like notation...

    If you are wrong you can change and become "more right". If you make no decision then you have effectively halted. Whilst that is wise if it is used to consider moving forward, it is often unwise to over-extend this pause as you are eroding the very materials you have to move forward. Most directly, time.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #139
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    A small drive-by like notation...

    If you are wrong you can change and become "more right". If you make no decision then you have effectively halted. Whilst that is wise if it is used to consider moving forward, it is often unwise to over-extend this pause as you are eroding the very materials you have to move forward. Most directly, time.
    Yeah but again I wasn't referring to making decisions. I was referring to the emotional attachment which is given to information - often needlessly.

    I accept things provisionally quite often because some information is better than none. I just try not to get attached to it. To me trust is an emotional attachment which leads to bad feelings when it is violated. So no I'm not going to throw my chips in with something to the extent that I feel wrecked if it turns out wrong even if I have to accept it provisionally.

    It's all about not getting so entrenched that I develop confirmation bias for my pet idea which I can't bear to be wrong because I've vested so much faith in it.

  10. #140
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah but again I wasn't referring to making decisions. I was referring to the emotional attachment which is given to information - often needlessly.

    I accept things provisionally quite often because some information is better than none. I just try not to get attached to it. To me trust is an emotional attachment which leads to bad feelings when it is violated. So no I'm not going to throw my chips in with something to the extent that I feel wrecked if it turns out wrong even if I have to accept it provisionally.

    It's all about not getting so entrenched that I develop confirmation bias for my pet idea which I can't bear to be wrong because I've vested so much faith in it.
    I do agree that emotional attachment to information is not only unnecessary but counterproductive. I don't see trust as an emotional matter, though, at least not in relation to the information one uses in making decisions. By "trust" here I mean more of a confidence level. There is very little we can know with 100% certainty, but we can often have some idea of how reliable information is based on its source, our familiarity with the topic, and whatever internal consistency checks we are able to do on it. Not foolproof, but helps one to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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