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  1. #111
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    This is about science vs public opinion and media is the middle man.

    There are witch hunters in the form of bloggers and conspiracy theorists and general citizens who post their opinions like you or I. The media also doesn't necessarily care about facts.

    What you're talking about may or may not happen but what I'm talking about can and does happen. Like how what's his name just now was talking about what the Wall Street Journal said. Is that scientific data? No. Does WSJ publish the data? No. Does this guy have access to the data? No. Does he do the experiments? No. He's just reading what a newspaper says. How does he know anything about anything that way?

    That's how the public gets screwed up. They read a paper and think they know some shit. Most of the time they don't have access to the actual data or the experiments, and even when we do it's through a second hand filter most of the time. All it would take is for somebody to just CLAIM that data is being withheld and a lot of the public are going to fall for it whether it is true or not. This is what I find so irritating.
    I do not agree with grey_beard's views as how it relates between science and politics, but the core of what he is saying is right. You're taking the conversation at hand in a different direction which is too far removed from the original discussion and thus it really just loses meaning. I'm getting the impression you're just trying to use this to justify your views on the political aspect of this to prove him wrong. It doesn't work that way.

    The general public doesn't start "witch hunts" as you're portraying it to be. The most the general public does with their views on scientific matters (and whether or not they choose to agree with it) mostly just effects how it gets applied. It doesn't effect the science itself, because that simply speaks for itself. There really isn't ant main group or think tank that drives this view one way or another. Politicans can and do do this to some degree, but not the general public. They're really at the end of the information chain.

    It's also not entirely fair to be angry and fault the public. I feel a little strange saying this because I get all kinds of bent out of shape over the general public being idiotic on major scientific points, but it's the truth. The fact of the matter is being able to understand and interpret scientific information is hard, and it takes a lot of concerted time, effort, and focus. Most of which most do not want to do. I didn't really learn how to read, understand, and objectively view scientific publications and results until I was in graduate school for a few years. It's kind of funny to look back at who I was when I was in college thinking I was able to interpret things I thought I had the ability to do. Boy was I wrong. Even then, there are some fields where I fully acknowledge are outside of my ability to grasp and understand well, and will often then defer judgement to the opinion of the experts on this when that happens. The crux of the problem is the general public thinks they can understand things, when they don't. They wrongfully disregard experts in place of themselves which is where many things go wrong.
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  2. #112
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    The way that fraud *is* detected, is when results cannot be replicated [...]
    Is redoing scientific research the best way to find truth?
    During replication attempts, too many studies fail to pass muster

    Full article:

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...context=189624

    "Scientists are less certain than ever that what they read in journals is true."

    It's a long article, but worth the time. I subscribe to the print edition.

  3. #113
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Hard

    Yeah sorry I start going off the rails when I get annoyed and pointless banter annoys me pretty fast.

  4. #114
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @grey_beard

    Yes it was a false dichotomy and I'm really getting sick of this. You actually believed I gave that little bit of crap any serious thought? Please.

    This is how people think you know. I just love how one little forumite is smarter than the entire fucking government and multibillion dollar massive megacorporations which have their VERY EXISTENCE hinging on getting the right things done. And we have this little nobody from nowhere coming in here IN THIS THREAD spouting off about how climate change is entirely wrong as if it's a foregone conclusion. In this thread. Like it does anything here.

    I know that green cars aren't green. I know that batteries aren't green. I know that producing solar panels is incredibly fucking toxic as well. This is not new to me. But I think one thing you will notice is that I haven't actually said that climate change is a fact. Yet we've apparently got some kind of genius in here spouting off about how they know for damn sure that it isn't a fact. They should get with the government and GE instead of being here wasting their obviously great potential for solving the worlds problems.
    *sigh*. You *did* tremendously change your tune compared to your last post, ok?

    The actual goal, should be to look at the actual raw data; look at the models; and decide if the models are accurate.

    But that isn't what's happening. In fact, the issue is SO important, we can't wait for the data (TM).

    Did you notice how it was predicted back in 2012, that the Arctic would be ice-free by 2015, due to global warming? Busted.

    And you might note, that as far as CO2 emissions -- China is building up to two new coal-fired power plants PER WEEK.

    Why no outcry against them?
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #115
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    *sigh*. You *did* tremendously change your tune compared to your last post, ok?

    The actual goal, should be to look at the actual raw data; look at the models; and decide if the models are accurate.

    But that isn't what's happening. In fact, the issue is SO important, we can't wait for the data (TM).

    Did you notice how it was predicted back in 2012, that the Arctic would be ice-free by 2015, due to global warming? Busted.

    And you might note, that as far as CO2 emissions -- China is building up to two new coal-fired power plants PER WEEK.

    Why no outcry against them?
    What does this have to do with public opinion vs the opinion of the scientific community?

  6. #116
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    What does this have to do with public opinion vs the opinion of the scientific community?
    Obviously...the scientific community is not regarding the actual raw data, and deciding if the models are accurate;
    the politicians are using the unverified results, to push for societal change (advantageous to them, for power, and to their cronies, for money);
    the public is being misled by sensationalist headlines "The Arctic will be ice-free in three years!"
    the scientists are not shouting down the sensationalist headlines as inaccurate.

    The remark about China is the proof of bad faith on those touting the need for *IMMEDIATE DRASTIC CHANGE* (TM) --
    for if the situation were as dire, for all of humanity, as presented, surely more political -- or in the last need, even military --
    pressure would be exerted on China.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #117
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Obviously...the scientific community is not regarding the actual raw data, and deciding if the models are accurate;
    the politicians are using the unverified results, to push for societal change (advantageous to them, for power, and to their cronies, for money);
    the public is being misled by sensationalist headlines "The Arctic will be ice-free in three years!"
    the scientists are not shouting down the sensationalist headlines as inaccurate.

    The remark about China is the proof of bad faith on those touting the need for *IMMEDIATE DRASTIC CHANGE* (TM) --
    for if the situation were as dire, for all of humanity, as presented, surely more political -- or in the last need, even military --
    pressure would be exerted on China.
    Ok and now what do you want me to say about it?

  8. #118
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Ok and now what do you want me to say about it?
    Well, you don't have to say anything if you don't want to.

    Live long and prosper (Vulcan salute.)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  9. #119
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    The fiddling with temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever

    According to yesterday's (February 7, 2015) Telegraph (a UK paper), climate scientists have been re-adjusting temperature data to show a warming of 1 degree C.

    Following my last article, Homewood checked a swathe of other South American weather stations around the original three. In each case he found the same suspicious one-way “adjustments”. First these were made by the US government’s Global Historical Climate Network (GHCN). They were then amplified by two of the main official surface records, the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (Giss) and the National Climate Data Center (NCDC), which use the warming trends to estimate temperatures across the vast regions of the Earth where no measurements are taken. Yet these are the very records on which scientists and politicians rely for their belief in “global warming”.
    How can they possibly justify changing actual raw data (and in one direction)? Does it mean the weather station thermometers were not properly calibrated? If that's the case, wouldn't the adjustments be random (in both directions?) or is something more sinister at hand? We'll never know because the climate scientists who are adjusting the temperatures have not given an explanation.

    Of much more serious significance, however, is the way this wholesale manipulation of the official temperature record – for reasons GHCN and Giss have never plausibly explained – has become the real elephant in the room of the greatest and most costly scare the world has known. This really does begin to look like one of the greatest scientific scandals of all time.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #120
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    I refuse (and have for several years now) to debate or discuss the issue of climate change against those who think it is a farce. I kind of slipped with that in the beginning because I didn't want to watch the thread become only that, but alas it did. It is a waste of energy and they don't have arguments to stand on anyway. I stand by this and still refuse to do so.

    Nevertheless, I find it painfully ironic that this thread is being hijacked by climate change deniers to push their issues, when the premise of the thread was discussing the issue of the general public disagreeing with the scientific consensus and views of the scientists who have worked on these very topics. Honestly, I also find it to be really sad.
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