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  1. #1
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Default Do you think science will solve moral issues?

    Straight forward question: Do you think science will solve moral issues like starvation, war, genocide, pollution, etc.

    Speaking statistically thus far it has not, in fact it has amplified in the opposite direction, but do you think that eventually we will reach a threshold where the trend will reverse such as the minimum point on an S curve?
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  2. #2
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    No. Because what you're really talking about is a reliance on technology to solve human moral problems and that's impossible since technology has it's own morality independent of humanity.

    "A principal characteristic of technique … is its refusal to tolerate moral judgments. It is absolutely independent of them and eliminates them from its domain. Technique never observes the distinction between moral and immoral use. It tends on the contrary, to create a completely independent technical morality.

    Here, then, is one of the elements of weakness of this point of view. It does not perceive technique's rigorous autonomy with respect to morals; it does not see that the infusion of some more or less vague sentiment of human welfare cannot alter it. Not even the moral conversion of the technicians could make a difference. At best, they would cease to be good technicians. This attitude supposes further that technique evolves with some end in view, and that this end is human good. Technique is totally irrelevant to this notion and pursues no end, professed or unprofessed." - Jaques Ellul

    A hammer is doing what it "should" be doing whether it's hitting a nail or bashing in someone's head.
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  3. #3
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No. Because what you're really talking about is a reliance on technology to solve human moral problems and that's impossible since technology has it's own morality independent of humanity.

    "A principal characteristic of technique … is its refusal to tolerate moral judgments. It is absolutely independent of them and eliminates them from its domain. Technique never observes the distinction between moral and immoral use. It tends on the contrary, to create a completely independent technical morality.

    Here, then, is one of the elements of weakness of this point of view. It does not perceive technique's rigorous autonomy with respect to morals; it does not see that the infusion of some more or less vague sentiment of human welfare cannot alter it. Not even the moral conversion of the technicians could make a difference. At best, they would cease to be good technicians. This attitude supposes further that technique evolves with some end in view, and that this end is human good. Technique is totally irrelevant to this notion and pursues no end, professed or unprofessed." - Jaques Ellul

    A hammer is doing what it "should" be doing whether it's hitting a nail or bashing in someone's head.
    It's interesting to abstract science as a tool. I agree with you. But let's also remember that the analogy of science as a tool is limited. A tool is a tangible thing. We can call belief systems a tool in so far as they are useful as one but they themselves are not actual hammers and nails. They are belief systems at the core.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #4
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    It's interesting to abstract science as a tool. I agree with you. But let's also remember that the analogy of science as a tool is limited. A tool is a tangible thing. We can call belief systems a tool in so far as they are useful as one but they themselves are not actual hammers and nails. They are belief systems at the core.
    Well if we're talking about science in the strictest sense then it isn't a belief system. It's just observations. Observations on their own tell us nothing about the future and thus are morally useless.
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  5. #5
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Well if we're talking about science in the strictest sense then it isn't a belief system. It's just observations. Observations on their own tell us nothing about the future and thus are morally useless.
    Observations are subjective. We may all see a bird flying but the way we see it is still rooted and limited by our ability to perceive.

    It's the same trap the indigenous person falls into. The entire tribe believes a dance causes rain because they dance and it rains. Same goes for us. Science is an extension of human thought. It will always be subjective in absolute form. It is only objective relative to more subjective sentiments.
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Straight forward question: Do you think science will solve moral issues like starvation, war, genocide, pollution, etc.

    Speaking statistically thus far it has not, in fact it has amplified in the opposite direction
    I believe only pollution has gone for the worse, althought age of industrialism was very polluted too.

    Also, what are the moral issues with starvation?
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  7. #7
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Straight forward question: Do you think science will solve moral issues like:
    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    starvation
    It has the potential to solve the logical problems of starvation, but not beyond that and beyond that is really where the problem is, so I lean rather towards no.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    war
    No. This is a sociopolitical problem that science doesn't have a solution to.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    genocide
    Same as above. This is a sociopolitical problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    pollution
    The potential is there, so yes maybe.
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  8. #8
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It has the potential to solve the logical problems of starvation, but not beyond that and beyond that is really where the problem is, so I lean rather towards no.



    No. This is a sociopolitical problem that science doesn't have a solution to.



    Same as above. This is a sociopolitical problem.



    The potential is there, so yes maybe.
    Deep!. Concise. Deep. Thank you.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  9. #9
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Observations are subjective. We may all see a bird flying but the way we see it is still rooted and limited by our ability to perceive.

    It's the same trap the indigenous person falls into. The entire tribe believes a dance causes rain because they dance and it rains. Same goes for us. Science is an extension of human thought. It will always be subjective in absolute form. It is only objective relative to more subjective sentiments.
    Some observations are subjective. Science focuses on making objective observations. Science is a method of learning about the world around us. As such, it is limited to the physical world and unable to decide questions of morality or spirituality. Though not a single tangible item like a hammer, it is indeed a tool, and can be used for good or for ill. Science can thus be used to solve the problems you mention, or to exacerbate them. It all depends on the intentions of the humans using it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #10
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The scientific method is way of avoiding delusion.

    We are meaning creating animals and we prefer any meaning to no meaning. But recently in our history we invented the scientific method to test any meaning to see if it is delusional or an illusion.

    So science is not going to do anything. It is technology that does things.

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