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  1. #1
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    Default Does quantum physics end the free will debate?

    Is Michio Kaku correct in saying that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle shows us that we have some kind of free will?


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    is indra's Avatar
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    It shows that the universe is inherently irrational and can only be known by experience.
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    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    @sunyata Can it be abstracted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opal View Post
    @sunyata Can it be abstracted?
    There is forever the possibility of being wrong, fundamentally.

    I'd say the opposite of free will - when I choose to eat a banana I am only coaxing myself toward the banana.
    tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers
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    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    There is forever the possibility of being wrong, fundamentally.

    I'd say the opposite of free will - when I choose to eat a banana I am only coaxing myself toward the banana.
    More or less, you can never guarantee anything? Control is an illusion, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    It shows that the universe is inherently irrational and can only be known by experience.
    You know, a few years ago I agreed with Michio Kaku. But now, I'm closer to determinism. Kaku says that the killer is not guilty if everything is predestined, referring to Newton's laws of motion, and Einstein determinism, but I think that the killer is guilty, because he is destined to be guilty, in order to learn a lesson.

    If you accept indeterminism you are rejecting moral laws, if you accept some predestination you are accepting some inherent moral order.

    Maybe I'm not right, but I believe in Karma.

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    Quantum level uncertainty simply means that we dont have means to predict quantum level events. Whether or not quantum level events follow same sort of causality that physical world does is unknown. And because it is unknown, the question on free will remains unknown.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacbad macbar View Post
    You know, a few years ago I agreed with Michio Kaku. But now, I'm closer to determinism. Kaku says that the killer is not guilty if everything is predestined, referring to Newton's laws of motion, and Einstein determinism, but I think that the killer is guilty, because he is destined to be guilty, in order to learn a lesson.

    If you accept indeterminism you are rejecting moral laws, if you accept some predestination you are accepting some inherent moral order.

    Maybe I'm not right, but I believe in Karma.
    So let's track this back a bit, since I want to better understand:

    Do people start at "neutral / blank slate" and Karma go from there?

    If so, does this mean you have free will before you make any decisions, but once you make a decision, suddenly your path is getting charted for you via the karma principle?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do people start at "neutral / blank slate" and Karma go from there?
    Do you mean Tabula rasa? I don't know for sure. But, I think we are all consequences of our previous actions and behaviors. What's your current reality is a consequence of your previous actions, behaviors, thoughts, etc. You know, we, humans are creatures of habits. We are conditioned to do this or that. If you consider that human existence is all preconditioned, you realize that our first goal is to transcend that conditions and try to shape our own, authentic reality, if you want. That's the purpose of brain plasticity and neural networking; you can mold your brain as a clay if you want, but to do that, we must be consciouss about spiritual reality and some kind of moral order.

    For instance, smoking is a simple example. Your emotional baggage has conditioned you to start smoking; if you release your attachments to a certain set of inner complexes which inclined you to start smoke, or if you transcend that inclination you can mold your brain and quit smoking. If you consider that smoking addiction is some kind of oral fixations, you can sustain that fixation by replacing smoking with bubble gums or peanuts, or you can neutralize fixation altogether.

    If so, does this mean you have free will before you make any decisions, but once you make a decision, suddenly your path is getting charted for you via the karma principle?
    I think we all have some karma baggage. I think we are here in order to clear up that baggage. I can't say we are responsible for something behind our reproach, all I can say that we may be separated from original branch, from our authentic selves.

    I guess, one must become aware of free will in order to be fully responsible for one's actions. One is going through many temptations through trials and errors until he/she reached an autonomous state of being.

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    This book convinced me Free Will is an illusion:



    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

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