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Thread: Does quantum physics end the free will debate?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Array Ene's Avatar
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    Aug 2012


    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We know precisely where your views come from. We have administered and studied tribal people from first contact to the present day in Papua New Guinea. And today we study the new tribalism called electronic tribalism on the internet. And both traditional and electronic tribalism have much in common. Our study is called Anthropology.

    Unfortunately the New Age romanticises tribalism and so muddies the water, often for personal advantage.
    Anthropology? Oh, wow, it's the salvation of all ignorant tribes people! If I don't even know what anthropology is how could I possibly have enough understanding to grasp Quantum Mechanics?

    Who's we? "We" wouldn't be condescending toward those different than ourselves, would "we?"

    Among us, who apparently don't know what an anthropologist is, we have a saying. "Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf."

    Is it possible that Moles not only are blind?

    My views differ from yours on many things but I will not even bother discussing them. If I wanted to waste my words, I would go shout into the wind.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

  2. #52
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    May 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I believe that the universe is 100% predetermined, but that we have Free Will anyway. How can we - unless we don't reside in a single universe?

    Every choice made by every particle changes the course of the entire universe around it. Infinite paths branch from every choice. The soul traverses through dimensions outside of time and space. Here is where Free Will lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Not meaning to be insulting, but I find it intellectually uninspiring that people seem so sure to say that we have no free will or that it's unknown. Given that one could say we are the universe observing itself, one could argue that our thoughts influence reality just as much as reality influences us. So this idea of free will or no free will sounds like a false dichotomy. It's the equivalent of a scientist looking at the electrons moving in the neural circuit of a human brain and saying it's just electron movement, but not understanding that there is a consciousness associated with the movement of those electrons, which is both influenced by that movement and influencing it at the same time.
    Excellent reflections.

  3. #53
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Array Mole's Avatar
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    Mar 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Is it possible that Moles not only are blind?
    We will admit to being short-sighted, but this only lends to our charm.

    Tribal people have a spoken culture, but by contrast, we have a literate culture.

    A spoken culture and a literate culture are quite different. A spoken culture is static and local as evidenced by the myriad of tribal languages. While a literate culture explodes outwards into the world as evidenced by colonialism.

    A spoken culture is engaged, and in particular, emotionally engaged moment by moment with everyone in earshot, while a literated culture is emotionally disengaged as evidenced by readers in their carrel in a library.

    Literacy produces the literate individual, whole a spoken culture produces the tribe.

    But interestingly we are moving from a literate culture to a dominant electric culture, so on Typology Central we are producing the E-tribe, in real time emotional contact throughout the entire world.

    So moving into the new E-tribalism it is wise to learn not only the good parts of traditional tribalism but also the bad parts.

    And unfortunately romanticising traditional triblism only looks at the good parts.

    For instance, as part of the same E-tribe we are in emotional contact and so you know how I feel about you. And you know I don't like you. If we were both literate individuals separated by the largest ocean in the world, you would not even know how I feel about you and you wouldn't know I don't like you.

    But what is important is to learn the advantages and disadvantages of spoken and literate cultures.
    There is NOTHING--absolute nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Simply messing.
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  4. #54
    AKA Nunki Array Polaris's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
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    To will is not to set yourself upon an open range; it is to set yourself upon a clear and decided course. The course along which the will orients itself may be abandoned, but that abandonment is experienced as a diminishment of the will, not as an expression of it. The will may meet with obstacles, but these obstacles do nothing to undermine its resoluteness and determination. If every obstacle were cleared out of the way of the will, if the will were maintained instead of abandoned, and if the will remained unmixed with other wills, it would initiate a process of the most mechanistic kind. The process so initiated would consist of the affected objects forever carrying out the project communicated to them by the will. They would never waver from their course, and they would be animated as by an irresistible law. That is all that our sense of willing amounts to: the sense that we're carrying out a direction or set of directions. If when we do this we feel free, it is not because we're engaged in an act of volition but because we feel permitted to do so. This state of feeling permitted to take a course of action comes closer to representing freedom than does the state of being set upon a course of action. The state of being set upon a course of action is only a manifestation of freedom. It is to freedom what a pretty scent is to a flower.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  5. #55
    Junior Member Array devaf's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
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    IMHO, it is premature, at this juncture, to link physics and philosophy. try to imagine a rosy path in the future where scientifc temper moulds experiental & existential subjective research, ultimately linking it into a hard science.

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    “By our stumbling, the world is perfected.”
    ― Sri Aurobindo

  6. #56


    Quote Originally Posted by hacbad macbar View Post
    You know, a few years ago I agreed with Michio Kaku. But now, I'm closer to determinism. Kaku says that the killer is not guilty if everything is predestined, referring to Newton's laws of motion, and Einstein determinism, but I think that the killer is guilty, because he is destined to be guilty, in order to learn a lesson.
    I have a similar attitude, albeit less spiritual.

    In theory, everything is predetermined -- even the apparently random motion of electrons. I'm fully confident that unless humanity destroys itself first, we will in time make Heisenburg's Principle very much Certain. But in practice, we're justified in saying 'Yes, we have free will' because we just don't know and can't control all the factors that create decisions.

    Just like I could in theory determine the result of a coin-flip based on the thumb's force and torque, the angle of trajectory, the coin's starting orientation, the distance fallen, the coin's bounce-factor, the surface it lands on, and the local wind speed, I'm certain that at some point in the future we'll be able to theoretically predict the motion of electrons. But in practice, the process happens too quickly and has too many factors to make an actual prediction.

    Which is why we lock up serial killers, despite the fact they were predestined to murder; they're a menace to society, and so must be removed. Which is really what justice is.

  7. #57
    The Green Jolly Robin H. Array GarrotTheThief's Avatar
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    Oct 2014


    Free will exists. Last week I ate breakfast at 7 am and today I ate it at 7:15. I chose to change the time two weeks ago and executed as chosen. I freely chose to eat brai fast at 7:15. I could have had it at 7:16 or skipped it. I didn't chose those options. The only predetermined part of my choice was that I would have to eat eventually or die.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"

    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Array Opal's Avatar
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    Jan 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Free will exists. Last week I ate breakfast at 7 am and today I ate it at 7:15. I chose to change the time two weeks ago and executed as chosen. I freely chose to eat brai fast at 7:15. I could have had it at 7:16 or skipped it. I didn't chose those options. The only predetermined part of my choice was that I would have to eat eventually or die.
    You chose to have breakfast when you did for a number of reasons, and you can choose to eat at another time on another day, even if it conflicts with your current plans--but no matter when you choose to eat, it will have been predetermined by every single factor that influences your decision. Does that make sense? Determinism isn't a constricting belief in the slightest--it just asserts that everything that has happened is all that could have happened given the contributing forces' trajectories.
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  9. #59
    Listening Array Oaky's Avatar
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    When every neural connection from your choices is determined by a reactionary response through every other relevant neural connection and the neural bias or the wiring of one's brain is formulated through constant repetition of the external influence, or by genetic formulation, and each infinitesimal influence is a reaction to every other infinitesimal force, will is only an illusion we utilise on a higher conscious plane through such mental programming. It is only but logical. Anything beyond it is incomprehensible as our logic formulated through such cause and effect of such things.
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  10. #60
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    Feb 2014


    An event could have two possible outcomes we could never predict, but it still has only ONE outcome in reality as we perceive it. Still no free will.

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