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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacbad macbar View Post
    Do you mean Tabula rasa? I don't know for sure. But, I think we are all consequences of our previous actions and behaviors. What's your current reality is a consequence of your previous actions, behaviors, thoughts, etc. You know, we, humans are creatures of habits. We are conditioned to do this or that. If you consider that human existence is all preconditioned, you realize that our first goal is to transcend that conditions and try to shape our own, authentic reality, if you want. That's the purpose of brain plasticity and neural networking; you can mold your brain as a clay if you want, but to do that, we must be consciouss about spiritual reality and some kind of moral order.

    For instance, smoking is a simple example. Your emotional baggage has conditioned you to start smoking; if you release your attachments to a certain set of inner complexes which inclined you to start smoke, or if you transcend that inclination you can mold your brain and quit smoking. If you consider that smoking addiction is some kind of oral fixations, you can sustain that fixation by replacing smoking with bubble gums or peanuts, or you can neutralize fixation altogether.
    While, yes, all of that is true, you're not addressing where karma comes from when a life is first created, whether in this lifetime or the ones previous -- which is at the heart of my question.

    There is a beginning to each continuous life, and at the beginning there is no "karma" because nothing has yet been done or chosen. There is nothing yet to react to / trigger a reaction. So in that state, a person is in a state of neutrality / balance, and thus theoretically has choice? Their action in that neutral space, in your thoughts, will define what happens to them for the rest of their existence.


    I think we all have some karma baggage. I think we are here in order to clear up that baggage. I can't say we are responsible for something behind our reproach, all I can say that we may be separated from original branch, from our authentic selves.

    I guess, one must become aware of free will in order to be fully responsible for one's actions. One is going through many temptations through trials and errors until he/she reached an autonomous state of being.
    I'm confused, I thought you said free will wasn't really part of this and you were more deterministic. Or did you mean that determinism is more prominent, but at various points there can be valid free choice?

    Also, if we're in the "machine" so to speak of determinism, even our "choices" are defined by our past choices and our environment, so at best I guess we can respond to our limited choice in the moment and hopefully ascend towards enlightenment, yet even our choices are a response to what our past choices were, so it's still rather deterministic. So how can we ever be truly autonomous?

    How are we defining autonomy? I don't really think "perfect autonomy" is possible, based on this conversation and prior thoughts I've had about this. Is there some kind of "autonomy for practical purposes" that is more useful to discuss?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    While, yes, all of that is true, you're not addressing where karma comes from when a life is first created, whether in this lifetime or the ones previous -- which is at the heart of my question.
    Simply, I don't know. I think we carried our karma from previous life in order to clear up all negative karma.

    There is a beginning to each continuous life, and at the beginning there is no "karma" because nothing has yet been done or chosen. There is nothing yet to react to / trigger a reaction. So in that state, a person is in a state of neutrality / balance, and thus theoretically has choice? Their action in that neutral space, in your thoughts, will define what happens to them for the rest of their existence.
    I don't know that.


    I'm confused, I thought you said free will wasn't really part of this and you were more deterministic. Or did you mean that determinism is more prominent, but at various points there can be valid free choice?
    I think determinism and indeterminism are just a words. There are no contradictions between them. Contraditions are the fabricated illusions in order to create different schools of thoughts in physics: deterministic and indeterminstic schools. It's quite dogmatic. Free will is some kind of mechanism in order to navigate through this predestination. I know it sounds abstract, but, I say, I don't have a definite stance, all I have are intuition and hunches.

    Also, if we're in the "machine" so to speak of determinism, even our "choices" are defined by our past choices and our environment, so at best I guess we can respond to our limited choice in the moment and hopefully ascend towards enlightenment, yet even our choices are a response to what our past choices were, so it's still rather deterministic. So how can we ever be truly autonomous?
    You know, logical mind is what is staying behind us and that knowledge, I guess. We cannot put these questions under a scope of logic. You simply know, or you don't know, you can't explain that, because the conceptual frame of mind, i.e. words, abstractions and ego are exactly what prevents us from spirtuality. And, spirituality, is not some kind of exotic knowledge, or some mystical stuff; it's the most natural thing, that genuine inner knowledge that we all posses.

    How are we defining autonomy? I don't really think "perfect autonomy" is possible, based on this conversation and prior thoughts I've had about this. Is there some kind of "autonomy for practical purposes" that is more useful to discuss?
    Autonomy is, yet, a just another word. Let's call it self-consciousness. Autonomy for practical purposes? Sure, I think. When we realize our potential, we are starting to implement it in the practical sense of the word.

    All I can say, I don't know for sure. I'm afraid we can't discuss these topics in the classical, logical way, through pros and cos.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and if we are composed of mass and energy, then we have always been in one form or another.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #14
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    You two are debating the origin of asymmetry. Science has only recently found a plausible solution - http://universe-review.ca/I15-04-Higgsfield.jpg

    The Buddhists' Dharmic form of Karma is induced well before corporeal form, but explicitly through phenomenal means. How lovely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and if we are composed of mass and energy, then we have always been in one form or another.
    tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers
    and you want to take her with you, to the hard land of the winter
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    There's a huge difference between proclaiming 1) we are free-willed creatures, and 2) that our actions are technically indeterminate. The latter is the result of the (some would say incomplete) ruling paradigm in physics right now, and in terms of human behaviour it is the inverse of determinism: Our actions are governed by non-probabilistic rules contra our actions are inherently governed by some degree of randomness. In my opinion, using the probabilistic nature of QM to argue for the existence of free will does not make sense at all because this indeterminacy is just as incompatible with the idea of free will as the determinism of classical mechanics. It's simply substituting one dictator (classical determinacy) of our actions with another (quantum randomness). I choose not to believe in free will because it necessitates some kind of metaphysical field which affects the mechanics of our physical being, i.e. a soul, and there is absolutely no reason to believe this is the case. Cogito ergo sum need not apply.
    ‘Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.’

    ‘And we will have made great strides in equality,
    when few have too much and fewer too little.’.
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  6. #16
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacbad macbar View Post
    Is Michio Kaku correct in saying that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle shows us that we have some kind of free will?

    His presentation of the arguments on either side is asinine. Physicists should stick with science, and not venture into absurd philosophical topics about what science "means" ... or at least not do so in a way that tries to say that "science says <insert non-scientific opinion here>". It's a shame how few scientists, especially those who are known as popularizers of science, cannot seem to understand that these statements aren't merely unscientific, but intellectually lazy and even dishonest.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  7. #17
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    I believe in free will because when I consciously chose to change my habit patterns my fate is altered. How do I know this? Scientific method. By determining that certain behaviors are correlated to certain outcomes I can chose other behaviors which result in other outcomes or chose to maintain the same behaviors and suffer or reap the benefits of the same outcomes.

    I have my own version of Karma. I'll tell you about it one time. Basically on the same day me and my friend did something to each other and suffered the same fate because we were standing next to a karma bubble. A karma bubble is a geographic area in space/time where karma is accelerated.

    As for quantum physics...I'm no expert but I am aware that photons travel back in time and concurrently exist with their former selves without altering or violating the laws of causality on a Newtonian scale.
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    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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  8. #18
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    Take a coin:
    • If the outcome is tails, go outside for a walk of fresh air.
    • If the outcome is heads, continue to browse the forums.

    Right now you are in a state of uncertainty - your choice is yet to be determined. Now throw it.


    Did you make that choice?
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    His presentation of the arguments on either side is asinine. Physicists should stick with science, and not venture into absurd philosophical topics about what science "means" ... or at least not do so in a way that tries to say that "science says <insert non-scientific opinion here>". It's a shame how few scientists, especially those who are known as popularizers of science, cannot seem to understand that these statements aren't merely unscientific, but intellectually lazy and even dishonest.
    Quite so.

    Quantum mechanics deals with the almost infinitely tiny, while free will deals with homo sapiens, almost infinitely larger than the quantum. The almost infinitely tiny and homo sapiens are in two quite different worlds, operating by different rules. And those who derive free will from quantum mechanics have no intellectual shame.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Perhaps, and this is just a thought, if mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and if we are composed of mass and energy, then we have always been in one form or another.
    We or the universe has been in the form of mass or energy for only 13.8 billion years.

    13.8 billion years is far short of always.

    So we decidedly have not been in the form of mass or energy always.

    Anyway this always is merely a New Age conceit and has no basis in astonomy or physics.

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